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Author Topic:   Subjective Evidence of Gods
Panda
Member (Idle past 214 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(2)
Message 451 of 468 (632820)
09-10-2011 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 447 by Chuck77
09-10-2011 6:52 AM


Re: Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity
Chuck77 writes:

Thanks again Panda, for adding to the conversation. Your one liners are as boring as you are.


Personal attacks: for when racism and misogyny aren't enough hate.
I guess your religion must really encourage hatred - as you see little reason not to express it.

Chuck77 writes:

Straggler is a big boy and would probably laugh at that but if you feel the need to stick up for Straggler im sure he is very thankful for you being here to defend him. Itching for that pat on the back huh?

He's like a big brother ehe? I understand. I have a little brother. I hope Straggler validates your feelings. I really do. It's ok little guy...it's..OK.


Projection at it's finest.
The only way you can understand my replies is to view them from your own perspective.

I realise that Percy, when allowing you to become a moderator, was following Sun-tzu's advice: "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.", but I think that he was also expecting you to grow the fuck up.
If so: he will be very disappointed.


Always remember: QUIDQUID LATINE DICTUM SIT ALTUM VIDITUR

Science flies you into space; religion flies you into buildings.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by Chuck77, posted 09-10-2011 6:52 AM Chuck77 has not yet responded

Straggler
Member
Posts: 9983
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 452 of 468 (632831)
09-10-2011 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by RAZD
09-10-2011 9:37 AM


Re: Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity
Firstly - Are you actually agreeing with Chuck that it is somehow indicative of the truth of one religion over another as to which one has the more converts?

Secondly - With regard to the rest of your post about me personally......


This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by RAZD, posted 09-10-2011 9:37 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Straggler
Member
Posts: 9983
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 453 of 468 (632835)
09-10-2011 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 444 by Chuck77
09-10-2011 3:22 AM


Re: Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity
Straggler writes:

The question is why you think this matters?

Chuck writes:

Dude, the question isn't why ME thinks this matters it's why THEY think it matters.

YOU obviously do think it matters who is converting from what to what otherwise YOU wouldn't have raised it as an issue would YOU?

So explain to me - Why does it matter? Do you think it is indicative of the truth of one religion over another?

Chuck writes:

I said more muslims are converting to Christinaity than Christians are converting to Islam. How many times do you need this repeated? Apperantly many many times. Can you ever admit anything is true????? You are frikking impossible dude, your like a dam woman you know that?

Before I head off to do my hair and make-up can you tell us all where you are getting this information from?

Chuck writes:

It would seem whatever subjective evidence they are coming across, favors Christianity.

I am sure Islamists all over the world are finding the face of Jesus in their toasted cheese sandwiches very compelling.......

Link

Or does this not qualify as subjective evidence.......?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Chuck77, posted 09-10-2011 3:22 AM Chuck77 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 457 by Chuck77, posted 09-11-2011 2:46 AM Straggler has responded

Straggler
Member
Posts: 9983
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 454 of 468 (632837)
09-10-2011 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 447 by Chuck77
09-10-2011 6:52 AM


Re: Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity
Chuck writes:

Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity

At last!! Someone who actually appreciates my talents!! Well done for your own highly perceptive viewpoint. And let me point out - No subjective evidence needed to come to that conclusion!

Case closed on subjective evidence then?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by Chuck77, posted 09-10-2011 6:52 AM Chuck77 has not yet responded

Straggler
Member
Posts: 9983
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 455 of 468 (632839)
09-10-2011 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by RAZD
09-10-2011 9:37 AM


Re: Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity
RAZ back in the days when you were still sane you said the following:

RAZD writes:

There likely is also cognitive dissonance: tell a believer that it looks like something else, and they'll probably deny it (like John 10:10 saying that you need to look with faith to see the evidence that justifies faith). So we should start believing because of the evidence before our eyes, evidence that you need faith to see, but evidence you will see once you have faith. So pass the mochi and believe in the Great Rabbit.

Message 14 in Underpass stains, burnt toast & the pervasiveness of the Cult of the Virgin Mary

Doesn't this apply to ALL subjective "evidence".....?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by RAZD, posted 09-10-2011 9:37 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by RAZD, posted 09-10-2011 7:37 PM Straggler has not yet responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 16135
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 456 of 468 (632866)
09-10-2011 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 455 by Straggler
09-10-2011 5:14 PM


Straggler tries to take another stab
Hi Straggles,

RAZ back in the days when you were still sane you said the following:

And not much has changed.

Doesn't this apply to ALL subjective "evidence".....?

That we should be skeptical of it? Yes.

But you need to try the mochi. Well made mochi is delicious.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by Straggler, posted 09-10-2011 5:14 PM Straggler has not yet responded

Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 457 of 468 (632896)
09-11-2011 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 453 by Straggler
09-10-2011 4:43 PM


Re: Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity
Straggler writes:

So explain to me - Why does it matter? Do you think it is indicative of the truth of one religion over another?

Does it matter to you what I think? If it doesn't matter to you that more muslims are converting to christianity then why does it matter to you what I think?

Besides, i've told you this before. You don't like to move the conversation forward you simply keep it right where you're at and refuse to accept any points anyone makes contrary to yours.

Before I head off to do my hair and make-up can you tell us all where you are getting this information from?

Lots of information on this subject. Lots Straggler but for some reason I doubt you care even if you see that it's true.

Here is just ONE source from an Islamic website: Islam watch: Telling the truth about Islam, by Salem Voice:

Islam, SVM News, 1 January, 2007: Millions of Muslim converts to Christianity celebrated Christmas throughout the world. According the reports of the various missionary organizations and news medias.

The Salem Voice Ministries evangelizing Muslims in India and many other Muslim nations. There are about 500 evangelists ministering among Muslims in different African, Middle East and Asian countries. A vast number of Muslims finding the truth and attaining Salvation of Jesus Christ day by day.

'More Muslims converted to faith in Jesus Christ over the past decade than at any other time in human history. A spiritual revolution is underway throughout North Africa, the Middle East, and Central Asia. As a result, a record number of ex-Muslims are celebrating Christmas this year, despite intense persecution, assassinations, and widespread church bombings'. These are the words of Joel C. Rosenberg, the author of the New York Times best selling political thriller.

Reference:http://www.islam-watch.org/...Islam/Muslims2Christianity.htm

There is tons of information on it, just search more for yourself if you're really interested.

I am sure Islamists all over the world are finding the face of Jesus in their toasted cheese sandwiches very compelling.......
Or does this not qualify as subjective evidence.......?

Lets see:

Call it a miracle! Or just call it the Jesus Toaster.

Retailing for $39.95, the revelatory toaster uses patented radiated heat technology to toast the face of Christ on any variety of daily bread, from plain white to whole grain.

Developed (some might say immaculately conceived) by Galen Dively III, 45, of Walden, Vt., the Jesus Toaster went on sale Wednesday at Dively's website.

Dively has deep faith in Jesus Toasters

Over the last few months, he's demonstrated the toaster for store managers and purchasing agents and won over numerous converts. So far, the only skeptic has been his wife, who set a cap on the initial purchase order (Dively wanted 5,000 toasters) and lately has been giving him "weird looks."

Well, I would say YES it does. Although the "converts" are buyers of the product, who is to say it's not a great witnessing tool and a good conversation starter about Jesus?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by Straggler, posted 09-10-2011 4:43 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-11-2011 3:13 AM Chuck77 has responded
 Message 467 by Straggler, posted 09-12-2011 6:52 PM Chuck77 has not yet responded

Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12976
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


(4)
Message 458 of 468 (632897)
09-11-2011 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 457 by Chuck77
09-11-2011 2:46 AM


Re: Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity
Here is just ONE source from an Islamic website ...

An Islamic website which describes Islam as "a lie" and "tyranny" and says that their aim is "to make world's 1.4 billion Muslims aware of the falsity of their religion" and states that "our ultimate aim is to guide Muslims out of the fold of Islam".

Perhaps I'm naive, but that doesn't sound very Islamic to me. I had always understood that one of the tenets of Islam was that Islam was true rather than false, and that people should join it rather than leave it. Maybe I have been misinformed.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by Chuck77, posted 09-11-2011 2:46 AM Chuck77 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 459 by Chuck77, posted 09-11-2011 3:17 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 459 of 468 (632898)
09-11-2011 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 458 by Dr Adequate
09-11-2011 3:13 AM


Re: Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity
Maybe I have been misinformed.

What you are informed about had no bearing on this subject one bit or this conversation other than to add more BS to the discussion that you seem to do a lot of.

If you are claiming that Salem Voice is lying supply the rebuttle to the article. Thanks Doc.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-11-2011 3:13 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 460 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-11-2011 3:18 AM Chuck77 has not yet responded

Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12976
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


(4)
Message 460 of 468 (632899)
09-11-2011 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 459 by Chuck77
09-11-2011 3:17 AM


Re: Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity
What you are informed about had no bearing on this subject one bit or this conversation other than to add more BS to the discussion that you seem to do a lot of.

If you are claiming that Salem Voice is lying supply the rebuttle to the article. Thanks Doc.

And if instead I claim that it is not an Islamic website? Y'know, like I actually did?

As to their honesty, their claims are often rather vague. However, their claim that there were no Christians in Uzbekistan in 1990 is checkable and false. See also here:

The German Lutherans, concentrated in Tashkent [...] have complained that their church, built in 1899 and closed by Stalin in 1937, has still not been returned to them by the government ...

Clearly, then, this religious community survived from at least 1899 up to at least 1994 when this report was written.

They also claim that in 1990 there were only three known Christians in Kazakhstan, a country which is over a quarter Christian today according to their own census, and which observes Christmas as a national holiday. That's either one of the fastest conversions in history or it's complete bollocks. Guess which:

By the number of believers, orthodoxy in Kazakhstan is the second religious direction after Islam represented mainly by the parishes of the Russian Orthodox Church, as well as Communities of Old Believers.

The history of orthodoxy appearance in Kazakhstan is related initially to military settlements, which appeared after Kazakhstan had joined Russia. In 1871 Turkestan Eparchy was formed, out of which existing Almaty, Shymkent and Tashkent Eparchies appeared.

In 1872 archbishop Sophonios (S.V.Sokolsky) was appointed as the first Kazakhstan eparch in Verny and Semirechensk Eparchy who was managing it till 1877.

Before the revolution of 1917 the Orthodox Church was the state religion of tsar Russia and, because of this, it enjoyed significant advantages in comparison with other religions.

The first years after the revolution are characterized with severe persecution of the Russian Orthodox Church. [...] Restoration of the ecclesiastic life on the territory of the country started only in 1945 with the establishment of Kazakh Eparchy and appointment of its ruling eparch (1945-1955) archbishop Nikolai (Mogilevsky), who became later the metropolitan and who was canonized by the Jubilee Cathedral in 2000. Thanks to his activity churches started to be restored and opened in the republic.

In 1991 the Holy Synod of ROC divided parishes in Kazakhstan according to three eparchial divisions. The first spiritual head of the orthodox Christians in independent Kazakhstan was Archbishop Alexiy - Andrei Nikolayevich Kutepov ...

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by Chuck77, posted 09-11-2011 3:17 AM Chuck77 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by Coragyps, posted 09-11-2011 9:48 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 4674
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 461 of 468 (632923)
09-11-2011 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 449 by Theodoric
09-10-2011 9:35 AM


Bump for Chuckie
You won't provide evidence but you give a negative rating for a call for evidence? You really don't understand how this works do you.

Yeah, you are going to make a real good admin.

Please some evidence.

I said more muslims are converting to Christinaity than Christians are converting to Islam. How many times do you need this repeated? Apperantly many many times.

Where is the evidence? Anecdotes are not evidence.

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by Theodoric, posted 09-10-2011 9:35 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5145
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 462 of 468 (632928)
09-11-2011 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 460 by Dr Adequate
09-11-2011 3:18 AM


Re: Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity
Doc, you know full well that them Orthodoxers ain't real Christians!!! Why, they're practically Cathliks!1!

"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken

This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-11-2011 3:18 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 463 of 468 (632940)
09-11-2011 11:34 AM


Final Summations
The 300 post limitation is being reinstated. This thread has surpassed that limitation and is now closed to debate. Participants will have 48 hours to submit one summary of their final position concerning the topic.

Do not respond to previous posts and do not respond to summations.

This thread will be closed for 24 hours to allow viewing of this message and preparation of summations.

Thank you
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.


AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 464 of 468 (633066)
09-12-2011 9:46 AM


Ready For Final Summations
Remember, debate is closed.
Do not reply to previous posts or final summations.

Thanks
AdminPD


Replies to this message:
 Message 465 by GDR, posted 09-12-2011 1:51 PM AdminPD has not yet responded

GDR
Member
Posts: 3799
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 465 of 468 (633109)
09-12-2011 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by AdminPD
09-12-2011 9:46 AM


Re: Ready For Final Summations
I think that we would objectively all agree that we have an innate sense of right and wrong even if we don’t always agree on the specifics. I also think that we would all objectively believe that human, and for that matter all intelligence is a reality. From these objective facts we then draw subjective conclusions. If our subjective conclusion is that there is no god(s), or in other words no prime mover, then we have to believe that intelligence and morality grew from 100% non-intelligent and non-moral material sources. It is my subjective conclusion is that it is more reasonable to believe that our morality and intelligence is the result of a moral and intelligent prime mover.

In addition we have bodies which perceive our existence through our 5 senses. That is an objective fact. In order to subjectively conclude that there is no prime mover we have to believe that our bodies complete with 5 senses just evolved from 100% non-intelligent material origins.

We know objectively that a living cell is an incredibly complex piece of work that at some point in the far distant past came into existence. If we subjectively believe that there is no prime mover we have to believe that by random chance, (or whatever terminology you want to use), atoms and molecules came together to create this first form of life and then later these cells, again by random chance, (or whatever terminology you want to use ), came together to form more complex life forms.

It is my subjective conclusion that there it is more reasonable to subjectively conclude that there was/is a pre-existing intelligence and morality responsible for all that we perceive.

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by AdminPD, posted 09-12-2011 9:46 AM AdminPD has not yet responded

  
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