Climate Change Delusion

Aren't we deluding ourselves into thinking that cap and trade, reducing our carbon footprint, eco-friendly products and a host of other politically correct pronouncements will in fact slow or stop any facet of climate change?I've read all too many articles on what will happen with melting glaciers, rising sea levels, increased CO2 levels, etc, etc. So the brakes on the Climate Change Cement Truck have been released and we think we'll throw out some scientific spike strip and stop it? Really?(:raig

"new fangled technology" Such as...?At least if we built a dike around Florida or provide all Floridians south of Orlando with hip-waders, it would be something we can see. But, not new fangled.I would tell my grand kids, "We'll try to fix things, but in the meantime, stay away from the Mississippi River basin and it's tributaries (floods), Texas and the Southwest (drought), southern Florida (new shallow sea) and the Central Plains (tornadoes). Now, run along and go play and don't worry so much".(:raig

Any new fangled technology to trap the methane gas being released from the Artic permafrost? I understand it has 20 to 30 times the "kick" of carbon dioxide.And as to storing CO2 gas? I'm sure the standard response will be similar to storing atomic waste. "Great idea. Just not in my state."(:raig

Ah, let me check the financial incentive chart. An oil company pumps out the oil and they sell it and make a profit. Now a tank(?) truck pulls up to the same well and the oil company is paid by __________ (fill in the blank) to pump CO2 back into the well and cap it. And the liability for any leaks is the responsibility of ___________ (fill in the blank) in perpetuity (forever).Meanwhile, let me pass on a little anecdote. DATELINE: Mayfield Village, Ohio on a frosty fall Sunday morning in the year 2002. It is about 9:00 AM, the sky is crystal clear, it is dead calm and there is frost on the ground in this certain church parking lot in a wooded area adjacent to a county park. Nearby is an abandoned gas well that has been leaking slowly for years. The amount of leaked gas has not been enough to prompt any action by any state or local government agency or oil company, despite repeated complaints. So, people grumbled and put up with the occasional gas odor.
Enter one church goer in his Olds who parks his car and gets out to have a quick smoke before going into church. He uses a match to light up and flicks the match into the gravel parking lot. KA-F-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-M! A blue sheet of flame races across the parking lot and scatters the church goers in a frantic dash to get out of the way.
The gas well was soon quickly sealed. Imagine that. But it took a near disaster to get any action. So, you can see why I have no confidence in underground storage schemes that could span decades.(:raig

Oh, yes. I'm not arguing with the technology. But my years of church going has taught me that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.(:raig

Fine Taq,Set up a test site. Tell the people there that you want to store a tasteless, odorless gas underground (and under pressure?) that has the potential to kill them.Seriously, where are you going to store CO2 and who accepts the liability and who pays for it? These are not just technical questions. These are political and economic issues that have to pass muster with a whole boatload of people before it becomes reality. My cynicism is not with the technology per se. It is with the pragmatic issues that surround the technology that could have a devastating impact on people and the environment if it goes awry.Okay, here's some simple technical questions that I don't know the answer to. What happens to the ground water in the area of CO2 stored under pressure? Does it absorb it? To what extent? Should you just add corn syrup and flavoring and call it Dr. Pepper? Then, maybe you get get a return on your investment.(:raig

Excellent!So, it's doable and has been doneable (sorry). What kind of volume storage are we talking about? What has been suggested?Natural gas is stored and has the potential of being used, so there is a profit incentive. But what about CO2? If you're just trying to take it out of circulation, then I see a CO2 tax to pay for it's storage. Sound reasonable?(:raig

Thank you for that, TaqReducing CO2 to a solid state makes me feel a bit better. It makes sense and appears to be a lot safer. I still don't know how stored gaseous CO2 interacts with the water table or if it makes any difference or not.In the meantime, the article on Iceland got me thinking about Hawaii. My cynicism in the cluelessness of Americans in positions of power and authority has been fully restored. Hawaii is sitting on top of a volcano for God's sake and 87% of their electricity is generated by petroleum and 8% by coal. The best technology in the world doesn't mean squat if you don't use it. What does Iceland have that Hawaii doesn't? Backbone? Vision? Commitment?http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/...lectricity.cfm/state=HI#fuel(:raig

And add this to my previous post.Utility Shelves Ambitious Plan to Limit Carbon - The New York TimesAgain, my cynicism is not with the technology of reducing or capturing carbon emissions.(:raig

I've always been puzzled by the Religious Right's resistance to the "Green Dragon"What part of GEN 2:15 do they not understand."And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it."Does that mean that since Adam and Eve got expelled from the garden that it's okay to let the whole thing go to Hell?(:raig

...and the big island of Hawaii sits on what, a glacier?Here is a perfect example of a great natural resource sitting untouchable in a national park. I can't believe that on the entire island of Hawaii (not the island chain), they can't find a spot for even a demonstration power plant? To me, that would be a heck of a tourist draw.Error retrieving uploaded document...and meanwhile, here in the Great State of Ohio, our illustrious governor is going to "drill, baby, drill". Damn the tourists! Full drill ahead!"Wooster Daily RecordDon't 'cha just love the consistency in the energy policies of this country? Oh, that's right. We don't have any.(:raigEdited by Malvern, : punctuation

I don't know how many Buz. So, I'd start with a pilot facility somewhere along Route 11 on the Big Island. Probably to the South or Southeast. Surface lava flows are too unpredictable, so I would think a slant drill toward the laval plume would be the way to go. The further Northwest you go, the (relatively) safer it is since the entire movment of the island chain is to the Northwest away from the laval plume.The facility can be served by Hilo to the Northeast. Hilo, with 40K population, has an international airport, residential and commercial facilities and an extention of the University of Hawaii.The whole point is to get something started. Show the rest of the nation and the world that we can tap into the natural resources right under our feet and not rely on oil tankers to bring fuel for the power plants.(:raigEdited by Malvern, : text edits

I'd take it one step further, and there is increasing support for this. Why do you need gasoline powered cars in Hawaii? It is a perfect test bed for electric propulsion. Recharged by geothermal electric generation? Hells Bells. Why not?(:raig

Just what I thought. All the power resources you could imagine, but you have to run a l-o-o-o-o-n-g (and expensive) extension cord over to Oahu. That's where political backbone comes in.It still may come to pass. At least they're going in the right direction.(:raig

So, in your opinion Taz, are we just pissing on a forest fire with all this talk of CO2 capture and "reduced carbon footprint"?(:raig