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Author Topic:   Who designed the ID designer(s)?
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 396 (138137)
08-30-2004 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ID man
08-30-2004 11:23 AM


Re: RAZD you don't have an argument
quote:
The problem is yours. IDists understand what they are trying to do with ID. You are trying to force it to do something it was never intended to do.
I think we all know what IDists are trying to do. This became very apparent when the Wedge Strategy came around:
Discovery Institute's Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture seeks nothing less than the overthrow of materialism and its cultural legacies. Bringing together leading scholars from the natural sciences and those from the humanities and social sciences, the Center explores how new developments in biology, physics and cognitive science raise serious doubts about scientific materialism and have re-opened the case for a broadly theistic understanding of nature. The Center awards fellowships for original research, holds conferences, and briefs policymakers about the opportunities for life after materialism.
The goal of ID is to cast doubt on evolution so that non-naturalistic theories (see creationism) can be inserted into public classrooms. To IDists, the veracity of ID theory is not important but inserting god into public classrooms is very important.
quote:
IDists are not saying you can't ask that question. If we can't answer the "who made it?" question about the artifact does that mean it becomes a product of nature acting alone? No.
No, it becomes a product of a natural being. No one finds a pottery fragment and proclaims "God Made It!!". Therefore, we would have to conclude that if ID was in fact responsible for life on earth then it would be due to a natural being acting through natural laws. This then brings us to who designed the designers. Is there an endless string of designers? Obviously not. Life HAD to originate SOMEWHERE naturally to give rise to the first designers. If the natural laws are sufficient to create the first designers, then design being necessary for life is falsified. Without inserting supernatural beings not affected by natural laws, then ID fails as a pre-requisite for life. This is why ID is a faith.
quote:
Allowing for ID this is how it is: Scientific investigation of the evidence says there was a designer.
No, scientific investigation of the evidence says that there is design. The question is whether or not blind algorithmic processes like evolution can result in the design. Given that evolutionary mechanisms are used currently by man to create design, I would say that it is very possible. What ID says is that we HAVE to conclude that there is a designer in the absence of a complete understanding of natural mechanisms. What science says is that we can only theorize mechanisms that we have evidence for, which invalidates an unobserved designer and leaves us with an observed design process (evolution).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ID man, posted 08-30-2004 11:23 AM ID man has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by RAZD, posted 08-30-2004 2:46 PM Loudmouth has replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 396 (138175)
08-30-2004 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by RAZD
08-30-2004 2:46 PM


Re: lets get back to the topic
quote:
This issue is off topic
the issue is that ID is a form of faith.
thanks
How are these off topic?
"The goal of ID is to cast doubt on evolution so that non-naturalistic theories (see creationism) can be inserted into public classrooms. To IDists, the veracity of ID theory is not important but inserting god into public classrooms is very important."
"Life HAD to originate SOMEWHERE naturally to give rise to the first designers. If the natural laws are sufficient to create the first designers, then design being necessary for life is falsified. Without inserting supernatural beings not affected by natural laws, then ID fails as a pre-requisite for life. This is why ID is a faith."
"What ID says is that we HAVE to conclude that there is a designer in the absence of a complete understanding of natural mechanisms. What science says is that we can only theorize mechanisms that we have evidence for, which invalidates an unobserved designer and leaves us with an observed design process (evolution)."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by RAZD, posted 08-30-2004 2:46 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by RAZD, posted 08-30-2004 4:20 PM Loudmouth has not replied
 Message 35 by Brad McFall, posted 08-30-2004 7:30 PM Loudmouth has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 396 (141282)
09-09-2004 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by ID man
09-09-2004 3:37 PM


Re: already addressed ... yawn- again ...ditto
quote:
Faith, not who designed the designers, is the crux of this thread.
Uhhh, you might want to take a look AT THE TITLE OF THE THREAD!!!
I will then ask you very bluntly, who designed the designers? Were they natural or supernatural beings?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by ID man, posted 09-09-2004 3:37 PM ID man has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by KKawohl, posted 05-15-2005 10:34 PM Loudmouth has not replied

  
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