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Author Topic:   Who designed the ID designer(s)?
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 376 of 396 (623819)
07-13-2011 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by bob123
07-12-2011 9:24 PM


Re: “What happened before that?”
If you're not even interested in the question that this forum is all about, why did you register here? Was it some sort of accident?

As for your argument, such as it is, it is obviously flawed: because as it stands it is not just an argument that I can't find out about the distant past, it's also an argument that I can't find out what happened five minutes ago.

Yes, as you say, any 6 year old can always legitimately ask: “What happened before that?”, but that does not in any way thwart my ability to find out what happened five minutes ago, and to do so to a degree of certainty that cannot reasonably be described as "all conjecture".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by bob123, posted 07-12-2011 9:24 PM bob123 has not yet responded

  
Taq
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Posts: 7140
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 377 of 396 (623827)
07-13-2011 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by bob123
07-12-2011 9:24 PM


Re: “What happened before that?”
Since there is no true beginning, you can never ascertain the essence or “how” of anything.

Baloney. Physicists and chemists have figured out how atoms interact, and they did this without needing to know the ultimate beginning of the universe or even how these atoms were produced to begin with. We don't need to know where hydrogen and oxygen came from to know that water is made up of two hydrogens to one oxygen, as one example.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Energy
Junior Member (Idle past 1961 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 12-28-2011


Message 379 of 396 (648904)
01-19-2012 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 377 by Taq
07-13-2011 5:36 PM


Re: “What happened before that?”
quote:
We don't need to know where hydrogen and oxygen came from to know that water is made up of two hydrogens to one oxygen, as one example.

So, the answer to a question does not need to be explained in itself to be acceptable. Nor does it need to be simpler.

Edited by Energy, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by Taq, posted 07-13-2011 5:36 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by Larni, posted 01-19-2012 10:18 AM Energy has responded
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3949
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 380 of 396 (648906)
01-19-2012 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 379 by Energy
01-19-2012 10:12 AM


Re: “What happened before that?”
So, the answer to a question does not need to be explained in itself to be acceptable. Nor does it need to be simpler.

No.

What Taq seems to be saying is that initial conditions of the universe are not required to be known to understand how atoms and molecules interact.

It's a bit like understanding ToE does not need an understanding of abiogenesis.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Well, Larni, let's say I much better know what I don't want to say than how exactly say what I do.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by Energy, posted 01-19-2012 10:12 AM Energy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by Energy, posted 01-19-2012 10:33 AM Larni has responded

    
Energy
Junior Member (Idle past 1961 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 12-28-2011


Message 381 of 396 (648907)
01-19-2012 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 380 by Larni
01-19-2012 10:18 AM


Re: “What happened before that?”
quote:
What Taq seems to be saying is that initial conditions of the universe are not required to be known to understand how atoms and molecules interact.

It's a bit like understanding ToE does not need an understanding of abiogenesis.



So it's not a question of causality, but mechanism.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by Larni, posted 01-19-2012 10:18 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 382 by Larni, posted 01-19-2012 10:42 AM Energy has responded
 Message 387 by Taq, posted 01-19-2012 4:45 PM Energy has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3949
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 382 of 396 (648908)
01-19-2012 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 381 by Energy
01-19-2012 10:33 AM


Re: “What happened before that?”
Basically.

Water is going to boil at 100C stp: we know that at that temperature the molecules break apart becuase the covalent and hydrogen bonds cannot be maintained.

We do not need to know where the atoms ultimately originated from.

Oh, and welcome to EvC!


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Well, Larni, let's say I much better know what I don't want to say than how exactly say what I do.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by Energy, posted 01-19-2012 10:33 AM Energy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by Energy, posted 01-19-2012 11:01 AM Larni has not yet responded
 Message 384 by NoNukes, posted 01-19-2012 1:48 PM Larni has responded

    
Energy
Junior Member (Idle past 1961 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 12-28-2011


Message 383 of 396 (648910)
01-19-2012 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by Larni
01-19-2012 10:42 AM


Re: “What happened before that?”
quote:
Oh, and welcome to EvC!

Why thank you.

quote:
We do not need to know where the atoms ultimately originated from.

Alright.

Edited by Energy, : No reason given.

Edited by Energy, : No reason given.

Edited by Energy, : ending discussion


This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by Larni, posted 01-19-2012 10:42 AM Larni has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by RAZD, posted 01-19-2012 4:55 PM Energy has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9918
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 384 of 396 (648953)
01-19-2012 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by Larni
01-19-2012 10:42 AM


Re: “What happened before that?”
Water is going to boil at 100C stp: we know that at that temperature the molecules break apart becuase the covalent and hydrogen bonds cannot be maintained.

Covalent bonds breaking when water boils? Surely not.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by Larni, posted 01-19-2012 10:42 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by Larni, posted 01-19-2012 2:39 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3949
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 385 of 396 (648965)
01-19-2012 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 384 by NoNukes
01-19-2012 1:48 PM


Re: “What happened before that?”
Covalent bonds breaking when water boils? Surely not.

Well I thought they did. That's what I remember from school.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by NoNukes, posted 01-19-2012 1:48 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-19-2012 4:35 PM Larni has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11701
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 386 of 396 (648983)
01-19-2012 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 385 by Larni
01-19-2012 2:39 PM


Re: “What happened before that?”
Covalent bonds breaking when water boils? Surely not.

Well I thought they did. That's what I remember from school.

Steam is still H2O...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by Larni, posted 01-19-2012 2:39 PM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 390 by Larni, posted 01-19-2012 6:17 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7140
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 387 of 396 (648987)
01-19-2012 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 381 by Energy
01-19-2012 10:33 AM


Re: “What happened before that?”
quote:
So it's not a question of causality, but mechanism.

Causality and mechanism are one in the same, at least how I view it. What causes evolution? Descent with modification filtered through natural selection. What is the mechanism of evolution? Descent with modification filtered through natural selection.

We could use a murder case as an example. The prosecution could present evidence where the defendant's fingerprints are found on the knife that was used in the murder. If the defense pointed out that the prosecution was not able to describe the ultimate origin of the molecules in the knife, or the ultimate origin of life on planet earth and hence the defendant, could this evidence be thrown out? Of course not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by Energy, posted 01-19-2012 10:33 AM Energy has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18965
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 388 of 396 (648990)
01-19-2012 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by Energy
01-19-2012 11:01 AM


answers to find depend on the question asked
Hi Energy, and welcome to the fray.

taq in Message 377: Physicists and chemists have figured out how atoms interact, and they did this without needing to know the ultimate beginning of the universe or even how these atoms were produced to begin with. We don't need to know where hydrogen and oxygen came from to know that water is made up of two hydrogens to one oxygen, as one example.

quote:
We do not need to know where the atoms ultimately originated from.

Alright.

In the context of doing chemistry we do not need to know the source of molecules, or even much about the molecules internal workings (quarks and leptons, not just electrons, protons and neutrons), in order to study and understand chemical reactions, or to make predictions on future reactions from the properties of the chemicals.

However, if the question "where do the atoms come from" is asked, then chemistry is not able to answer that question.

In a similar vein, if the question "where did life come from" is asked, then evolution is not able to answer that question -- evolution deals with the "chemical reactions" of organisms within ecologies, and doesn't need to know where life came from to study and understand evolutions "reactions," or to make predictions on future "reactions" from the properties of the organisms and their ecologies.

In the context of the topic for this thread (Message 1):

quote:
I would like to address the problem of "who designed the designer(s)" -- even though ID proponents adamantly argue that the question is not relevant to the science involved, because I feel it is very relevant to the issue of whether ID is a faith or not. As such, I suggest that it be put in the {Faith and Belief} forum rather than the ID forum.

I claim (here and elsewhere) that ID is de facto a form of faith.


In the context of the above discussion, it would be possible to study aspects of ID without knowing where the IDer came from.

In the context of this thread I am asking where the IDer came from.

Enjoy.

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Edited by Zen Deist, : ps


we are limited in our ability to understand
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Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Energy, posted 01-19-2012 11:01 AM Energy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 391 by Energy, posted 01-19-2012 7:36 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 392 by NoNukes, posted 01-19-2012 7:38 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 389 of 396 (648996)
01-19-2012 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by Energy
01-19-2012 10:12 AM


Re: “What happened before that?”
So, the answer to a question does not need to be explained in itself to be acceptable.

Quite. Every three-year-old has discovered that if you go on asking "why?" for long enough, eventually you exhaust the knowledge of your parents. But this doesn't invalidate all the answers given before you reach that point.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by Energy, posted 01-19-2012 10:12 AM Energy has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3949
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 390 of 396 (649004)
01-19-2012 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 386 by New Cat's Eye
01-19-2012 4:35 PM


Re: “What happened before that?”
D'oh!

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-19-2012 4:35 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

    
Energy
Junior Member (Idle past 1961 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 12-28-2011


Message 391 of 396 (649018)
01-19-2012 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 388 by RAZD
01-19-2012 4:55 PM


Re: answers to find depend on the question asked
Causality and mechanism are one in the same, at least how I view it. What causes evolution? Descent with modification filtered through natural selection. What is the mechanism of evolution? Descent with modification filtered through natural selection.

Sounds like you're asking it wrong. If a footprint were found in snow, for example.
v
v
v
However, if the question "where do the atoms come from" is asked, then chemistry is not able to answer that question.

In a similar vein, if the question "where did life come from" is asked, then evolution is not able to answer that question --

The origin of the footprint doesn't answer how the foot made the depression in the snow, which would be explaining the mechanism of it. I could be wrong, however, as I am usually missing something lol

Thanks for the tips, Zen, and for the welcome.

Quite. Every three-year-old has discovered that if you go on asking "why?" for long enough, eventually you exhaust the knowledge of your parents. But this doesn't invalidate all the answers given before you reach that point.

I'm inclined to agree with you.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by Taq, posted 01-20-2012 11:15 AM Energy has responded
 Message 396 by RAZD, posted 01-21-2012 10:47 AM Energy has not yet responded

  
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