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Author Topic:   The Ultimate Question - Why is there something rather than nothing?
AZPaul3
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Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 9 of 366 (624849)
07-20-2011 11:12 AM


Two Speculations
At the present time we cannot answer this question. There may not even be an answer that would not contain some flaw in logic or other. There are some speculations on the subject, however, though none of them are very satisfying and none with any compelling logic or compelling evidence for there position.
But since you asked, let me forward two:
1. We can imagine a number of different universes. The one we are in is an excellent example, of course. Last numbers I saw estimate this universe, at least that much of it that we can see, has about 1085 atoms. We can imagine universes in which there are less "somethings" and those in which there are more "somethings". We can imagine finite universes and infinite universes. This imagined set of possible universes is therefor infinite. Of this infinite set of imagined possible universes there is only one where the universe is filled with "no things". All other universes in the set contain "some thing". So, the story goes, if a universe is to come into existence ex nihilo there is a vanishingly small, indeed an infinitely small, possibility that such a universe would have nothing. All other possibilities would have something.
2. Virtual particles pop into/out of existence everywhere all the time in the quantum foam that is this universe, we are told. Indeed, if quantum theory is correct, then a pre-spacetime void might be a seething quantum foam itself. So there may have never been a condition of "nothing" to begin with, but what the hey, let's roll with it.
The process is one of borrowing energy to create matter/anti-matter pairs of particles that, in keeping with the greatest probability, instantly annihilate. By creating matter/anti-matter pairs the total energy of the system is zero before, during and after the particles creation/annihilation.
But Quantum theory allows for other possible outcomes than instant annihilation as well as for more than one such pair popping into existence in such an event. So the speculation goes that if you have an infinite nothing within which this quantum foam is frothing then there is the possibility, exceptionally small to be sure, of hitting one of those outcomes where a large number of virtual particles pop into existence all at once. Over a span of, say, 101000 eons the probability of hitting an outcome in the extreme right-hand tail of the bell curve, way out there in the 5th or 6th standard deviation area, becomes quite probable. And, as FermiLab has shown, the CP-symmetry violation of weak nuclear interactions in B-mesons indicates the possibility that an imbalance in matter/anti-matter annihilation would leave a small balance in favor of matter. So this is getting a "something" from a condition as close to "nothing" as a pre-spacetime void might allow.
By the way, if this were the case for our present universe then, as with the energy balance in the more probable case of instant annihilation, the energy balance of this universe would have to be zero at all times. Guess what? As far as we can tell, it is.
So there are a couple speculations on why there is something rather than nothing.
Fun stuff to contemplate, but I think the answer will be beyond us for quite some time if not forever.
Edited by AZPaul3, : the usual culprits
Edited by AZPaul3, : Cosmetic change for superscripts
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 15 of 366 (624869)
07-20-2011 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dr Jack
07-20-2011 12:13 PM


Re: Two Speculations
Why are there an infinite number of universes?
Not an infinite number of universes but an infinite number of possible configurations which a universe might assume when coming into existence.

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 Message 13 by Dr Jack, posted 07-20-2011 12:13 PM Dr Jack has replied

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 Message 18 by Dr Jack, posted 07-20-2011 2:18 PM AZPaul3 has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 17 of 366 (624873)
07-20-2011 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by bluegenes
07-20-2011 1:17 PM


Re: Self-inconsistent?
Are you sure about this one? Isn't a "state"* something? Don't we have a problem with the idea of nothingness existing, as this would give it the state of existence?
For the purposes of the OP I took "something" vs "nothing" to mean the the presence vs absence of matter/energy, not "ideas".

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 Message 16 by bluegenes, posted 07-20-2011 1:17 PM bluegenes has replied

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 20 of 366 (624895)
07-20-2011 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by bluegenes
07-20-2011 2:39 PM


Re: Self-inconsistent?
If we use a phrase like "in the beginning, there was nothing", we've used a tense of the verb "to be", and turned "nothing" into something which existed, because it "was"
Your headache is contagious. Stop it!
Take two Advil, have a little lie down and think "matter/energy, matter/energy, matter/energy". You'll be fine in the morning.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 24 of 366 (624934)
07-20-2011 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Dr Jack
07-20-2011 2:18 PM


Re: Two Speculations
I rather think any notion of a universe coming into existence is an assumption of something.
I can see that but I won't admit it and I'll ask anyway.
Why?

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 Message 18 by Dr Jack, posted 07-20-2011 2:18 PM Dr Jack has replied

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 44 of 366 (625035)
07-21-2011 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Dr Jack
07-21-2011 4:27 AM


Re: Two Speculations
A truly "nothing" universe would not "come into existence", nor lead to anything else coming into existence.
Yes. It would be indistinguishable from the void from which it came ... or didn't come, actually.
So, for speculation 1, since this universe "came into being" the only configurations possible had to contain "something" by definition.

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 Message 37 by Dr Jack, posted 07-21-2011 4:27 AM Dr Jack has replied

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 46 of 366 (625048)
07-21-2011 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Dr Adequate
07-21-2011 7:50 AM


Undefined
Perhaps you could clarify your reasoning on this point.
there is no reasoning, i'm simply stating a fact. Or perhaps you have a definition of "nothing" of which I am unaware?
"Undefined" as in as yet unknown
or
"undefined" as in lacking anything that could be defined.
If cavediver decides to grace us mere mortals with some actual teaching rather than just some dismissive quips we may find out.

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 Message 47 by cavediver, posted 07-21-2011 9:04 AM AZPaul3 has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 49 of 366 (625058)
07-21-2011 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Dr Jack
07-21-2011 9:05 AM


Re: Two Speculations
Who says this universe "came into being"?
Don't get your panties in a knot. I was laying out some speculations I had come across on the question, that is all.
There must be other speculations than the two I put forward that seek to answer the question. Got any to add?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Dr Jack, posted 07-21-2011 9:05 AM Dr Jack has replied

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 Message 81 by Dr Jack, posted 07-22-2011 4:08 AM AZPaul3 has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 51 of 366 (625093)
07-21-2011 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by cavediver
07-21-2011 9:04 AM


Re: Undefined
Oh, I'm sorry. I'll just ask all my clients to call back later whilst I compose some longer replies.
quote:
"undefined" as in lacking anything that could be defined.
is a lot shorter and quicker than
quote:
there is no reasoning, i'm simply stating a fact. Or perhaps you have a definition of "nothing" of which I am unaware?
And as for your clients? Thank you. We would appreciate that.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 74 of 366 (625169)
07-21-2011 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by bluegenes
07-21-2011 2:54 PM


Nothing At All
Non-existent things can't actually be. So, a state of "no things" cannot exist/be.
If I understood what cavediver said in his Message 66 above I think you may be on the right track.
Like "before the big bang" and "outside the universe" a "nothing" cannot exist because the concept does not exist.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 90 of 366 (625318)
07-22-2011 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Dr Jack
07-22-2011 4:08 AM


Re: Two Speculations
If you're going to get upset if people challenge your speculations, why are you bothering to post in this thread?
Well they are not my speculations but sort of an amalgam of others I'd heard over the years. And you challenged one, quite well as I recall, and I agreed with your reasoning.
we are merely engaging in a game of mental masturbation in which the winner is simply the one who comes up with the most plausible sounding fantasy.
That's part of the fun, Mr Jack.
You got one you've heard somewhere haven't you? Just kick your shoes off, lean back, relax and join us.

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 Message 81 by Dr Jack, posted 07-22-2011 4:08 AM Dr Jack has replied

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