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Author Topic:   Kent Hovind
Admin
Director
Posts: 12555
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 106 of 182 (626742)
07-31-2011 6:01 AM


Moderator Notice
Hello everyone!

I'm going to cease participating in this thread and begin moderating, but I won't take any actions
for a couple days.

First, kudos to the creationists for maintaining their composure and to the evolutionists for making sense.

Second, this thread began as an attempt to promote a debate with Kent Hovind, but since he's in jail it quickly morphed into discussing the nature of creation/evolution debates. If there's no longer any interest in discussing this topic then perhaps the thread should be closed.

I think the recent discussion contained several good examples of the techniques employed by creationists and evolutionists in debate, and perhaps some attention could be focused on those.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
Drosophilla
Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 172
From: Doncaster, yorkshire, UK
Joined: 08-25-2009


(1)
Message 107 of 182 (626749)
07-31-2011 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Dawn Bertot
07-30-2011 4:31 PM


Re: Debating creationists
Here we go:

And I am sure you are aware of the fact (new comer) that there is difference between an assertion and an argument.

Ah so you think I'm a new comer do you? Is that because I haven't bothered posting to you before or because of my relatively low post count? Either way you are wrong - I've been on EvC for over 4 years - I just don't post flurries of babbling nonsense as you do. By the way - what you've done there is an 'ad hominem fallacy' - attack the man not the argument - classic creationist live debate technique!

Knowing that you cannot do that, I will be happy to know that you are not only uninformed but a poor polemist. Fire away.

Hasty generalisation fallacy - another classic creationist hallmark. Well, to give you a little background - I am scientifically trained (in the biological sciences) so have a good understanding of both the scientific method and the ToE. My job currently involves me drafting communication re government regulatory changes. This means my use of English and specifically the content I use has to be explicit and as free from possible misinterpretation as possible (given the modern propensity to litigative recourse). I have become very adept at spotting 'crap' inserted in the English language. Are you really sure you want to debate me?

Happily logic and sound reasoning are what we employ, sophistry aside. Again another assertion by yourself. Do you have any examples or arguments to accompany that ignorant assertion?

You seem to use the word 'logic' quite a lot in your posts I've noticed. But do you really understand the limitations of its application? Logic isn't used to say that something is true or not. Logic is the formal process of the validity of inferences.

for example a statement may say that "If A is equal to such and such this means B must be so and so" Logic provides that inference between the conditions of A and B. It does not say A is correct (and therefore B) only that given starting conditions, logic can be used to provide inference between conditions. How is this relevant for your 'God' theory? Simply, religion starts out assuming there IS a god and going on from there. Logic is then applied onwards - BUT if the opening premise is wrong (there ISN'T a God) then all subsequent logic is invalid - there are no relevant inferential links applicable.

In a nutshell this is your problem. Your grand opening statement (there IS a God) is assumption (built on 2000 year old bronze-age texts written, translated, re-written over time, languages and via political and cultural agendas. And this is the ONLY 'evidence' you use for your opening premise. Please don't use the word 'logic' anymore in your word salads -it's an affront to the Boolean language!

Thus far your post and points are a snooze fest. Do you have any SPECIFC examples of where I have provided anything of that nature

Is reading and comprehension so difficult for you? I was explaining the verbal snake-oil techniques used in live creationist debates and you asked the above question. When did I say YOU, specifically have used those techniques in a live debate?

Perhaps if you were better prepared and informed you could make a better appearance and presentation. Yeah, I understand its hard to think on your feet

Part of these poor scientist problem, is that they dont understand the issues to begin with

So you value style over substance do you? Are you really so clueless that you don't recognise stage-managed guile and deception? Give me one reason that live debates are 'better' than written ones. I'll give reasons why written ones better - let's see your countermand:

1. Written debates are permanent. Neither debater can retract statements without it being obvious his position is jeopardised.
2. Written debates can cover every issue - no chance of a debater 'forgetting' to answer things he found difficult
3. Written debates give each side time to reflect and research questions. This is the ACADEMIC way to proceed - and we are dealing with academic issues here aren't we? Live debates appeal to the media and public lust for live 'action' - but that is no way to progress issues requiring deep reflection.
4. Written debates eliminate showmanship trickery. A debate should not revolve around which personality can best 'play' an audience, but instead it should only focus on the subject under discussion. If you need to 'play' to a live audience there is something fundamentally weak about your position.

Now - give me reasons why you think a live debate is preferable.

In written ofrm or in person, it wouldnt help your case. Due to the fact that you are trying to wedge a principle into the discussion that is either non-existent or imaginary. Your trying to create a case or scenerio that is not a problem in the first place

The above sentence is pure word-salad - English words strung together with no sense at all - if I did this in my job I'd be looking for another post by now. Incidentally this is another ploy used in live creationist debates (you should get in touch with Gish - he'd see you as a natural). If you said the above statement to a scientist in a live debate he'd look puzzled and would remain silent. The audience would lap it up thinking - "that great Dawn - hasn't he got that scientist in trouble", when in reality the scientist would be thinking "Well he seems to be talking English - I understand each word he has uttered - but the sentences just don't seem to make sense - what is he actually trying to ask me?"

You see, scientists deal with concretes and specifics. Word-salad is alien and strange to them. Do you not think the Gish's of this world don't know that?

By the way - do you really read all the posts sent back to you? If so then please re-read dwise1's post number 71 - the perfect post laying out the creationist 'strategy' to dealing with the tiresome 'scientific' objection to their fairyland beliefs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Dawn Bertot, posted 07-30-2011 4:31 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Dawn Bertot, posted 07-31-2011 4:40 PM Drosophilla has responded

Drosophilla
Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 172
From: Doncaster, yorkshire, UK
Joined: 08-25-2009


Message 108 of 182 (626752)
07-31-2011 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by dwise1
07-30-2011 5:35 PM


Re: Debating creationists
Case in point was Clifford Stoll's description of his oral exams for his PhD Astronomy. The question was: "Why is the sky blue?" It took him two or more hours to answer the question fully.

It took him two or four hours, but it's been quite a while since I've read his book, The Cuckoo's Egg, which tells the story of how he had discovered and tracked down a German spy for the Soviets breaking into US government and university computers for information of the Strategic Defense Initiative, AKA "Star Wars". It was reenacted for an enjoyable 1990 episode of Nova, The KGB, the Computer, and Me, which I found on YouTube a few years ago. The book has apparently been reprinted, since I spotted it last week during Borders' liquidation sale.

Thanks for that - interesting character!

By the way - your post No. 71 was awesome - the whole dishonest creationist campaign form its roots onwards laid out beatuifully.........unfortunately it's very much a case of 'peals before swine' with Dawn!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by dwise1, posted 07-30-2011 5:35 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by IamJoseph, posted 07-31-2011 9:56 AM Drosophilla has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 182 (626757)
07-31-2011 9:00 AM


Hovind Singled Out
I knew one man who lived and died a tax protester, not unlike Hovind and I know of one living, not unlike Hovind, a long time tax protester. There are many other lifetime un-prosecuted tax protesters, some deceased and some still alive.

Perhaps it would take a constitutional amendment to lawfully convict these folks, or perhaps, were they prosecuted, the government is concerned about opening some cans of worms, so to speak, which they want kept closed.

I believe the reason Hovind got busted is because of his notoriety as a creationist, whether or not his science was well founded.

Though Hovind, like other YECs, considered himself to be a Biblical literalist, in reality, he was not. He was a very intelligent and witty debater who convinced a lot of the creationist minded sheeple into believing he was a Biblical literalist, but he did not reason out what Genesis one says regarding the timing of the creation of the celestial bodies of the Solar System relative to the role of the sun and moon, etc.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-31-2011 9:34 AM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 117 by hooah212002, posted 07-31-2011 10:24 AM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply

Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16025
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 110 of 182 (626766)
07-31-2011 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Buzsaw
07-31-2011 9:00 AM


Re: Hovind Singled Out
I knew one man who lived and died a tax protester, not unlike Hovind and I know of one living, not unlike Hovind, a long time tax protester. There are many other lifetime un-prosecuted tax protesters, some deceased and some still alive.

How much did they steal?

Given what the Bible says about respect for civil authority, are you planning to turn them in?

Perhaps it would take a constitutional amendment to lawfully convict these folks, or perhaps, were they prosecuted, the government is concerned about opening some cans of worms, so to speak, which they want kept closed.

You can always test this hypothesis by informing the duly constituted civil authorities of their crimes. Go for it.

I believe the reason Hovind got busted is because of his notoriety as a creationist, whether or not his science was well founded.

Or maybe he was a flagrant crook.

C'mon, you might as well say that Al Capone was only busted because of anti-Italian prejudice.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Buzsaw, posted 07-31-2011 9:00 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Buzsaw, posted 07-31-2011 10:56 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Panda
Member (Idle past 1545 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 111 of 182 (626767)
07-31-2011 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by IamJoseph
07-31-2011 2:04 AM


Re: Debating creationists
IamJoseph writes:

How would you describe it?


So - I say that your terminology is unknown to me (and google) and your response is to ask me what I think your terminology means?

Do you truly think that your English is understandable?
Why do you not believe us when we say that your English makes little sense?
How many people would it take for you to accept that your grasp of English is very confused?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by IamJoseph, posted 07-31-2011 2:04 AM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by IamJoseph, posted 07-31-2011 9:49 AM Panda has not yet responded

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 1501 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 112 of 182 (626769)
07-31-2011 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Panda
07-31-2011 9:45 AM


Re: Debating creationists
OK. Perhaps my writings is too capsulated and requires better and expanded clarifications.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Panda, posted 07-31-2011 9:45 AM Panda has not yet responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 1501 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 113 of 182 (626770)
07-31-2011 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Drosophilla
07-31-2011 7:59 AM


Re: Debating creationists
I think this claim is not well thought of or analysed:

quote:
That was the situation in the beginning of the creationist "debates" in the 1970's. Those poor scientists went in thinking that the debate would be about what science is and says and shows us. Instead, they got hit by an avalanche of creationist bullshit the likes of which they had never seen before and could have never imagined in their wildest nightmares. They were totally unable to deal with the mass of misrepresentations, misquotes, and outright lies that was being thrown at them.


Can we see some examples of what is called BS in the Hebrew bible - whether from a view of science, history, geography, math or anything which has been disproven - none were given?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Drosophilla, posted 07-31-2011 7:59 AM Drosophilla has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by frako, posted 07-31-2011 10:09 AM IamJoseph has responded
 Message 128 by dwise1, posted 07-31-2011 1:55 PM IamJoseph has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 63 days)
Posts: 3181
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 114 of 182 (626773)
07-31-2011 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by IamJoseph
07-31-2011 2:16 AM


Re: Debating creationists
Here's a start: get the fuck on topic. See what the topic of the thread is? KENT HOVIND. This isn't a thread where you can show how little you know about any and everything. You can try that in other threads.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by IamJoseph, posted 07-31-2011 2:16 AM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by IamJoseph, posted 07-31-2011 10:18 AM hooah212002 has responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2773
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 115 of 182 (626776)
07-31-2011 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by IamJoseph
07-31-2011 9:56 AM


Re: Debating creationists
Can we see some examples of what is called BS in the Hebrew bible - whether from a view of science, history, geography, math or anything which has been disproven - none were given?

Hows about the flood, the exodus, the leprosy cure, talking animals, the sun stopping, shadow of a sundial going backwards ...... i could go on forever

As for the creationist claims cmmon just look at why do people laugh at creationists on youtube 34 episodes of pure bullshit and explenations why it is bullshit.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by IamJoseph, posted 07-31-2011 9:56 AM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by IamJoseph, posted 07-31-2011 10:26 AM frako has responded
 Message 121 by Buzsaw, posted 07-31-2011 11:08 AM frako has responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 1501 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 116 of 182 (626782)
07-31-2011 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by hooah212002
07-31-2011 10:05 AM


Re: Debating creationists
quote:
This isn't a thread where you can show how little you know about any and everything. You can try that in other threads.

I quoted a statement made by the thread starter which appears deficient. You seem to have a problem with that. It is not how the term BS can be evidenced.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by hooah212002, posted 07-31-2011 10:05 AM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by hooah212002, posted 07-31-2011 10:32 AM IamJoseph has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 63 days)
Posts: 3181
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 117 of 182 (626784)
07-31-2011 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Buzsaw
07-31-2011 9:00 AM


Re: Hovind Singled Out
I believe the reason Hovind got busted is because of his notoriety as a creationist,

Was Willy Nelson a famed creationist as well? Did you ever stop to think that it maybe was because of the egregious income he took in? The authorities tend to look the other way when you are a poor sap. But when you rake in millions and millions, you kind of owe your fair share and the authorities take notice.

whether or not his science was well founded.

Rest assured that it wasn't.


"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Buzsaw, posted 07-31-2011 9:00 AM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 1501 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 118 of 182 (626786)
07-31-2011 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by frako
07-31-2011 10:09 AM


Re: Debating creationists
quote:
Hows about the flood, the exodus, the leprosy cure, talking animals, the sun stopping, shadow of a sundial going backwards ...... i could go on forever

As for the creationist claims cmmon just look at why do people laugh at creationists on youtube 34 episodes of pure bullshit and explenations why it is bullshit.


With respect to Hovind and not disrupting his subject, there is no issue with the flood, which contains the first reference to actual geographical sites and reports of a huge flood. The exodus is also not without evidences: we know that the ancient Israelites were in a war with Egypt [A stelle confirms this], and that they later settled in Canaan till 70 CE: it proves they got from one place to another, and that the human count was 3 M - aka an exodus. Yes, the text for leprosy represents the first initiation of medicine as a faculty of science. The talking animals is a tricky one, but this is posed as a miraculous FX, not another daily occurence. Not bad for an ancient writings - which other can compete?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by frako, posted 07-31-2011 10:09 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by frako, posted 07-31-2011 2:40 PM IamJoseph has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 63 days)
Posts: 3181
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 119 of 182 (626787)
07-31-2011 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by IamJoseph
07-31-2011 10:18 AM


Re: Debating creationists
I quoted a statement made by the thread starter which appears deficient.

I know you think the world revolves around you. But alas, my response to dwise was not concerning you. Secondly, every word you have typed has been deficient. Every sentence you've composed has been horribly lacking in clarity.

Which, I suppose, isn't actually so far off topic. We can just use you as an example of how dishonest creationists are and how horribly they mangle debates. You've gish galloped your way close to EVC infamy.

Now, if you don't mind: I have NO intention of even trying to have any sort of discourse with you. Be gone from me.

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by IamJoseph, posted 07-31-2011 10:18 AM IamJoseph has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 182 (626788)
07-31-2011 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Dr Adequate
07-31-2011 9:34 AM


Re: Hovind Singled Out
Dr Adequate writes:

How much did they steal?

Given what the Bible says about respect for civil authority, are you planning to turn them in?

I'm not convinced that they are not supported by the constitution of the US of A. Jesus advocated to render to Caesar, i.e. the government what was Caesar's and to God what was God's.

These folks are convinced in their own minds that they are fulfilling their obligations to Caesar. If they are not, why is the government not going after all of them as was the case with Hovind? Why have many lived and died, never having been prosecuted?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-31-2011 9:34 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 07-31-2011 11:08 AM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 127 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-31-2011 11:30 AM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply

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