Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,829 Year: 4,086/9,624 Month: 957/974 Week: 284/286 Day: 5/40 Hour: 1/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Higgs Boson
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 610 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 32 of 81 (667654)
07-10-2012 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Trixie
06-28-2012 8:06 AM


Re: Rumours
What is so great about 5 standard deviations?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Trixie, posted 06-28-2012 8:06 AM Trixie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Taq, posted 07-10-2012 10:29 PM foreveryoung has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 610 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 34 of 81 (667656)
07-10-2012 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Taq
07-10-2012 10:29 PM


Re: Rumours
I didn't think statistics applied in particle physics. From what I know about this stuff, particles leave distinct path marks on metal plates after they have gone through an accelerator. I suppose this is a particle that doesn't show one of the same distinct paths that all other known particles have shown?
Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Taq, posted 07-10-2012 10:29 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-10-2012 11:25 PM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 36 by Rahvin, posted 07-11-2012 12:00 AM foreveryoung has replied
 Message 37 by Dogmafood, posted 07-11-2012 12:22 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 610 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 38 of 81 (667676)
07-11-2012 4:31 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Rahvin
07-11-2012 12:00 AM


Re: Rumours
Have you heard of the Uncertainty Principle?
Do you understand what an "electron cloud" is?
Those might help you understand.
Yes I understand both principles. But how do those principles help us know if scorings on a metal plate hit by a bunch of sub atomic particles correspond to certain theoretical particles such as quarks, or muons or bosons or the higgs?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Rahvin, posted 07-11-2012 12:00 AM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Son Goku, posted 07-11-2012 6:15 AM foreveryoung has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 610 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 40 of 81 (667694)
07-11-2012 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Son Goku
07-11-2012 6:15 AM


Re: Rumours
The statistics in particle physics experiments have a simple enough origin in this case.
For instance in the case of the search for the Higgs, we see a bump in the two photon channel. This means that around 125 GeV slightly more photons were being produced than the energies around it, the hypothesis is that these extra photons come from the decay of the Higgs boson.
However it is possible that extra photons were produced simply by chance without the Higgs. So you compare the results against the scenario where the photons are produced by chance. It then turns out that such a bump has only a 0.00005% chance (1 in 2 million) chance of occurring randomly. Hence it is overwhelmingly likely to be a Higgs.
To me, what the statistics say is that "something" is going on to produce the extra photons that is not random or by chance. Why is it the science community all convinced this "something" is their long sought after higgs boson?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Son Goku, posted 07-11-2012 6:15 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by vimesey, posted 07-11-2012 12:07 PM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 42 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-11-2012 12:08 PM foreveryoung has replied
 Message 44 by Son Goku, posted 07-12-2012 4:12 AM foreveryoung has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 610 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 43 of 81 (667764)
07-12-2012 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Dr Adequate
07-11-2012 12:08 PM


Re: Rumours
Does a boson of any flavor even have any mass? I don't subscribe to the standard model of particle physics. Bosons are part and parcel of that theoretical system. What is your definition of a particle anyway?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-11-2012 12:08 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Son Goku, posted 07-12-2012 4:16 AM foreveryoung has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 610 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 46 of 81 (667817)
07-12-2012 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Son Goku
07-12-2012 4:12 AM


Re: Rumours
Ok. That is the answer I was looking for, but the next step for me would be why does a higgs boson predict all those things in your list?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Son Goku, posted 07-12-2012 4:12 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Son Goku, posted 07-12-2012 4:11 PM foreveryoung has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 610 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 47 of 81 (667818)
07-12-2012 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Son Goku
07-12-2012 4:16 AM


Re: Rumours
For what reason?
All of reality can be described and predicted by the stochastic electro dynamic model just as well as the standard model can. The biggest difference is that the SED model incorporates the existence of zero point energy fields in its predictions and the standard theory does not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Son Goku, posted 07-12-2012 4:16 AM Son Goku has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-12-2012 1:19 PM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 49 by PaulK, posted 07-12-2012 1:26 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 610 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 53 of 81 (668253)
07-19-2012 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Son Goku
07-12-2012 4:11 PM


Re: Rumours
Well we know there are two forces, the electromagnetic force and the weak force. The carrier of the electromagnetic being the photon and the carriers of the weak force being the two W bosons and the Z boson.
There is no such thing as a photon. Particles don't carry forces.
Since the W bosons carry electric charge we know that the two forces are related in some way. The idea arrived in the 70s was that this was because they were originally one force, the electroweak force.
Prove that the phenomena that people call W and Z bosons are indeed particles. If they are particles, they possess the phenomena of charge; they don't "carry" anything. Yes, the weak force and the electromagnetic force are related, and it is because they both result from the interaction of matter waves.
Unfortunately if you write down the equations for the electroweak force, relativity and quantum mechanics demand everything should be massless. Which they obviously aren't.
The first mistake is assuming that quantum mechanics describes reality in any meaningful way.
The only possible way around this is to have something which breaks the symmetry associated with the electroweak force.
Symmetry associated???? That sounds like mathematical games to me.
According to the theory certain interactions even though they involve different numbers and species of particles have the same probability of occurring. This is the symmetry I'm speaking of.
How would they know if they have the same probability of occurring?
Any mechanism which reduces the symmetry to a smaller set of symmetries will natural cause the force to split in two and give the W bosons and the Z boson their mass.
How would they know this?
RTE news/special reports writes:
But the universe is a big place and the Standard Model only explains a small part of it. Scientists have spotted a gap between what we can see and what must be out there. That gap must be filled by something we don't fully understand, which they have dubbed 'dark matter'. Galaxies are also hurtling away from each other faster than the forces we know about suggest they should. This gap is filled by 'dark energy'. This poorly understood pair are believed to make up a whopping 96 percent of the mass and energy of the cosmos.
There is something obviously wrong with the standard model and/or quantum mechanics for there to that much matter and energy to be unaccounted for. Just because a theory has nice mathematics and makes good predictions, doesn't mean it accurately represents reality. The higgs boson is nothing more than the all pervasive zero point energy field that I have mentioned here before. The standard model of physics just makes it fit into neat little imaginary particles with imagined force carrying capabilities.
Now, for my detractors, I read his whole post. I understand what he is saying. I just don't think it reflects reality. I suppose the usually suspects will be here shortly to jeer me to death because I upset their apple cart.
Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Son Goku, posted 07-12-2012 4:11 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-19-2012 2:20 AM foreveryoung has replied
 Message 57 by vimesey, posted 07-19-2012 5:53 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 58 by Son Goku, posted 07-19-2012 7:18 AM foreveryoung has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 610 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 55 of 81 (668255)
07-19-2012 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Dr Adequate
07-19-2012 2:20 AM


Re: Rumours
electro magnetic waves of a certain frequency

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-19-2012 2:20 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-19-2012 3:11 AM foreveryoung has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 610 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 59 of 81 (668294)
07-19-2012 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Dr Adequate
07-19-2012 3:11 AM


Re: Rumours
What are you talking about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-19-2012 3:11 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-19-2012 8:30 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 610 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 60 of 81 (668295)
07-19-2012 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Son Goku
07-19-2012 7:18 AM


Re: Maybe you're wrong! x10
Why do detectors pick up isolated objects with spin-1 when they analyse a beam of light?
They pick up a pulse in an electromagnetic wave. The spin comes from what phase the wave is in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Son Goku, posted 07-19-2012 7:18 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Theodoric, posted 07-19-2012 1:49 PM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 62 by fearandloathing, posted 07-19-2012 2:08 PM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 63 by Son Goku, posted 07-19-2012 3:06 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024