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Author Topic:   Kent Hovind
Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 19 of 338 (627022)
07-24-2011 10:25 AM


Re: Gish Gallop & Confinement
Regarding the Gish Gallop, at least Gish was one opponent doing the galloping. The real challenge comes when a creationist gets a whole pack galloping at him and the debate mods egging them on.

Unlike Hovind, I'm not a YEC. However, IMO, were it not for his creationist ideology Hovind would have been out on parole by now.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 23 of 338 (627026)
07-24-2011 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by hooah212002
07-24-2011 11:16 AM


Re: Gish Gallop & Confinement
You don't know what a Gish Gallop is, do you?

I do, but if you don't get the connection in my message, perhaps you had better look up it's meaning for yourself.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by hooah212002, posted 07-24-2011 11:16 AM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 109 of 338 (627112)
07-31-2011 9:00 AM


Hovind Singled Out
I knew one man who lived and died a tax protester, not unlike Hovind and I know of one living, not unlike Hovind, a long time tax protester. There are many other lifetime un-prosecuted tax protesters, some deceased and some still alive.

Perhaps it would take a constitutional amendment to lawfully convict these folks, or perhaps, were they prosecuted, the government is concerned about opening some cans of worms, so to speak, which they want kept closed.

I believe the reason Hovind got busted is because of his notoriety as a creationist, whether or not his science was well founded.

Though Hovind, like other YECs, considered himself to be a Biblical literalist, in reality, he was not. He was a very intelligent and witty debater who convinced a lot of the creationist minded sheeple into believing he was a Biblical literalist, but he did not reason out what Genesis one says regarding the timing of the creation of the celestial bodies of the Solar System relative to the role of the sun and moon, etc.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-31-2011 9:34 AM Buzsaw has responded
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Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 120 of 338 (627123)
07-31-2011 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Dr Adequate
07-31-2011 9:34 AM


Re: Hovind Singled Out
Dr Adequate writes:

How much did they steal?

Given what the Bible says about respect for civil authority, are you planning to turn them in?

I'm not convinced that they are not supported by the constitution of the US of A. Jesus advocated to render to Caesar, i.e. the government what was Caesar's and to God what was God's.

These folks are convinced in their own minds that they are fulfilling their obligations to Caesar. If they are not, why is the government not going after all of them as was the case with Hovind? Why have many lived and died, never having been prosecuted?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-31-2011 9:34 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 07-31-2011 11:08 AM Buzsaw has responded
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Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 121 of 338 (627124)
07-31-2011 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by frako
07-31-2011 10:09 AM


Re: People Who Laugh
frako writes:

As for the creationist claims cmmon just look at why do people laugh at creationists on youtube 34 episodes of pure bullshit and explenations why it is bullshit.

The majority secularistic population will always laugh at creationist minded phenomena but the same majority are fine with the secularistic notion that the universe's origin/genesis had no existing area in which to have happened, no time in which to have happened and no outside of into which to have expanded.

Edited by Buzsaw, : Fixing submit problem

Edited by Buzsaw, : 2nd attempt to fix "submit"


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by frako, posted 07-31-2011 10:09 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 123 of 338 (627126)
07-31-2011 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by jar
07-31-2011 11:08 AM


Re: Hovind Singled Out
jar writes:

It really is simple.
Either the Government is unaware of them or they are simply so totally irrelevant and unimportant to be worth the cost of going after them.

Why thanks, jar; thanks very much, for inadvertently making my point as to why the government singled out Hovind for prosecution. It had to be, therefore, other than evasion for singling him out. No?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 07-31-2011 11:08 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by hooah212002, posted 07-31-2011 11:19 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
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Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 190 of 338 (627287)
08-01-2011 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Coyote
07-30-2011 9:18 PM


Re: Debating creationists
Coyote writes:

Creationism is a religious belief, not a "logical principle."

Creation "science" was invented after creationism was banished by the courts. But creation "science" was itself shortly thereafter banished, as was it's stepchild, "intelligent design."

All of these were disallowed because they are religion, not science.

And still creationism is a religious belief in spite of these attempts to take on the trappings, and respect, relegated to science.

Religious only implies that a higher power exists, being an intelligent designer.

The term religion connotes beliefs relative to the designer/creator. Though the science of creationism research has a religious connotation, the evidence research regarding creationism and intelligent design, study of history, doing archeological research, etc so as to gather evidence data, substantiating the credibility of prophetic statements, cultures cited from the Bible, people, places and kingdoms, etc are all aspects of the science of creationism. These are not practicing religion perse.

There are many logical aspects of creationism. ID more logically explains the order and complexity than the notion that chaos naturally emerged into order.

That nearly all cultures of the world since the recording of history (abe: have been religious) is just one of many logical reasons to believe higher intelligences exist in the universe.

Whether or not you believe Lennart Moller's marine research in Aqaba proved anything, he was not practicing his religion, what ever it be. He was doing science. No?

Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Coyote, posted 07-30-2011 9:18 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 193 of 338 (627293)
08-01-2011 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Coyote
08-01-2011 10:33 PM


Re: Coyote's (abe: Creation Science) Evasion
Coyote, you totally evaded all of my message. You did not address any of the pertinent points I made (abe regarding creationism doing science.)

(abe: Regarding the Mollar creation research, )I did not ask you about Ron Wyatt. My question was regarding renowned marine biologist Lennart Moller's science ship & crew and the research they did regarding the evidence they allege to be in the gulf.

Was Lennart Moller and his crew practicing religion, doing this research or were they doing science which was intended to falsify/verify the evidence alleged to be in the area relative to the Biblical account of the Exodus event?

(abe: You were trying to lead off topic, turning this into another Exodus debate. That is not where I'm going here. It's about the science/religion question. )

Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Coyote, posted 08-01-2011 10:33 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Coyote, posted 08-01-2011 11:57 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 202 of 338 (627360)
08-02-2011 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Coyote
08-01-2011 11:57 PM


Re: Coyote's (abe: Creation Science) Evasion
Coyote writes:

Didn't mean to evade your points, but when you mention archaeology I tend to focus on that, as that is something I've been doing for >40 years.
And I googled Mollar, but the passage I ended up finding was somehow Ron Wyatt. The page I landed on wasn't very specific.

Not really on topic anyway I guess.

But you did evade them all and you appear to still be evading. As to my question, I repeat, Was Swedish scientist Lennart Moller and his science ship crew doing science or practicing religion while doing their Aqaba research so as to falsify or verify the Exodus account?

Edited by Buzsaw, : Add word for clarity


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Coyote, posted 08-01-2011 11:57 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 221 of 338 (627546)
08-02-2011 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Coyote
08-02-2011 11:00 AM


Re: Coyote's (abe: Creation Science) Evasion
Coyote writes:

In terms of archaeology -- no, they were not doing science.

Coyote, my question criteria did not call for your rendition of what is science. I simply ask you, were they doing science or practicing religion with their research ship and crew?

Not all scientists come to the same conclusions. Surely you know that. Which is it? What were they doing out there that does not come under the definition of science? Certainly they were not practicing religion. Likely some of the crew were not even religious.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Coyote, posted 08-02-2011 11:00 AM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Coyote, posted 08-02-2011 8:22 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 228 of 338 (627590)
08-02-2011 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Coyote
08-02-2011 8:22 PM


Re: Coyote's (abe: Creation Science) Evasion
Coyote writes:

They gathered the flimsiest of evidence and used it to make far-reaching claims. One might be allowed to do that in apologetics, but not in science.

There is no real evidence to work with to determine which of the many possible interpretations might be correct. And why didn't they grab some of the "wheels" when they were there? Surely that would have helped to settle the issue.

That's not true. They researched the whole region, establishing corroborative evidence. Moller researched to falsify other sites. You need to view the video and read his book to get a handle on all that he did.

I'm not sure, but perhaps if they were to show that they removed items they would be in some kind of legal trouble with the nations whose waters they were in. Being an archaeologist, I'm sure you know that there are some sites where it is best not to disturb the field of phenomena.

Coyote, all I can say is that sometimes your reasoning is either totally biased or totally irrational. You know full well that this research crew was doing science, whether or not you ascribe to their research.

If, in your mind their research was incomplete and more study needed to be done, that does not negate the research they did as something other than science. That is often the case with many scientists projects. More study may need to be done.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 241 of 338 (627765)
08-03-2011 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by fearandloathing
08-03-2011 11:18 AM


Re: Coyote's (abe: Creation Science) Evasion
fearandloathing writes:

It just seems to me it would be fairly easy to prove or disprove his claims. Based on my limited knowledge of what happens to wood in a marine environment, it would never allow coral growth to form in the shapes he shows, wood would be the first thing to go. I am not sure how long iron would last or what evidence of it if any would be left inside the coral formations.

If wood goes first, why is there wood in the Black Sea alledly pre-dating the Exodus? Why couldn't it form in the shapes he shows? How could it form in the wheel shapes the evidence shows if there were no wood wheels?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by fearandloathing, posted 08-03-2011 11:18 AM fearandloathing has responded

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 243 of 338 (627767)
08-03-2011 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Taq
08-03-2011 6:25 PM


Falsifying Evidence.
Taq writes:

For what it is worth:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the individuals who I interviewed, who lost approximately 30,000 thousand dollars to Ron Wyatt, went to Israel with him, supposedly to see some of these sights and record them on film. An assignment editor of a major television station in Nasheville went with them. Not only did this individual not see any of these incredible discoveries, but his wife was told by one of Ron Wyatt's sons that the chariot wheels that Ron supposedly discovered in the Gulf of Aqaba were planted there by Ron. Mr. Wyatt gave this couple some coins which he supposedly found at the Ark of the Covenant site. Again, one of Wyatt's sons informed the wife that Wyatt bought those coins. Gentle, soft-spoken Ron verbally abused an Arab car rental agent when the agent told Mr. Wyatt that his son was to young to drive the vehicle.
This couple and the television man returned with nothing to show for the ten's of thousands of dollars he gave to Ron. Later, Ron returned and asked for $10,000 dollars more. This man told Ron he would give him the money if he agreed to take a lie detector test and sign a statement agreeing to allow this man to use the results of the test any way he wanted. Ron tried to get the money without agreeing to take the test, but when he saw that he would not get another dime without the test, he finally signed the statement and took the test. In the words of the man who put Ron Wyatt through the test, as told by the man who gave Ron Wyatt all the previous money, "He failed just about everything except his name."
source

Interestingly, he goes after Wyatt. All do, yet it was Moller who set out to falsify Wyatt's claims. I don't think Moller, renowned as a scientist would jeopardize his credibility by fraudulently reporting his research.

Interestingly, also, is that if so many are so anxious to debunk the evidence why aren't they there to do it fair and square themselves. That's easy. They don't want to find the evidence that Moller produced.

Everybody calls for more research. Well, let the skeptics go in and either poop or get off the pot..

The Exodus is not the topic here We've all been there and done that.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Taq, posted 08-03-2011 6:25 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 248 of 338 (627782)
08-04-2011 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Coyote
08-03-2011 11:36 PM


Re: Coyote's (abe: Creation Science) Evasion
Coyote writes:

1) What is the evidence that it is wood?
2) What is the evidence that it pre-dates the exodus?

Surely you're aware of Robert Ballard's National Geographic touted discovery, estimated to be over 5000 years ago of wooden structures 550' down in the Black Sea.

Apparently this confirms my contention that permission must be had from the nation whose jurisdiction the area is under in order to analyze the wood, etc. To my knowledge, that has not yet been done. Why should scientist Moller be held to a higher standard of research than the likes of the great renowned Ballard so far as verification?

quote:
If Ballardís team gets permission from the Turkish government, they may take a sample of the wood for dating. This would not only confirm the date of the structure, but help to establish a more precise date for when the flooding of the Black Sea took place.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Coyote, posted 08-03-2011 11:36 PM Coyote has not yet responded

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Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 252 of 338 (627802)
08-04-2011 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by fearandloathing
08-04-2011 8:47 AM


Re: Coyote's (abe: Creation Science) Evasion
fearandloathing writes:

Seems you have answered yourself, thanks.

But the coral would not have formed in the Black Sea region. The coral likely formed before the wood rotted or possibly even preserved the wood from rot to some degree.

In either case, there was good reason not to publicize further research. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, as the saying goes.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by fearandloathing, posted 08-04-2011 8:47 AM fearandloathing has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by fearandloathing, posted 08-04-2011 10:20 AM Buzsaw has responded
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 Message 257 by Dirk, posted 08-04-2011 6:22 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
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