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Author Topic:   The Blind Watchmaker?
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5312 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 1 of 54 (451124)
01-26-2008 12:43 PM


“In crossing a heath, suppose I pitched my foot against a stone and were asked how the stone came to be there, I might possibly answer that for anything I knew to the contrary it had lain there forever. ... But suppose I had found a watch upon the ground, and it should be inquired how the watch happened to be in that place, I should hardly think of the answer which I had before given, that for anything I knew the watch might have always been there.”
The above quote belongs to the Reverend William Paley, taken from Natural Theology: or, Evidences of the Existence and Attributes of the Deity, Collected from the Appearances of Nature, written in 1831.
Paley’s arguments are the basis for what is now known as intelligent design (ID). But his analogy has always struck me as being a little odd.
To explain why I say that, let’s send Paley back from the 19th century, to the Stone Age for example. Would he have been able to imagine his famous analogy then? Or similarly, in the above quote, why did he use a watch to represent complex design as opposed to a quad-core microprocessor, for instance?
The answer to both of these questions seems fairly simple. To the best of our knowledge, based on all the evidence we have available to us, the watch that Paley imagines did not exist in Stone Age times, or the microprocessor in the 19th century.
But why should this be? Paley’s argument is that the watch he talks of is evidence of complex design, which in turn requires an intelligent designer. Based on his argument, there seems no reason why Stone Age man should not have designed the watch of which he talks. Wasn’t Stone Age man as intelligent as his descendants? Wouldn’t he have had use for a sophisticated timepiece?
Most of the evidence we have suggests that, for all practical purposes, Stone Age man was little different to modern man in terms of his mental capabilities.
So what then does Paley’s imagined watch actually represent? Surely what it represents is not intelligent design, but evolved, accumulated knowledge.
Take an example of something like the modern car or automobile. Its lineage can be traced back to vehicles such as the more humble Roman chariot and beyond. Whilst these two vehicles share some common traits, the technologies employed are literally eons apart. But what if we compare this year’s car to last year’s model. The design differences are going to be minor, as car design tends to advance in small increments.
So a large part of the design of the latest models is simply evolved, accumulated knowledge, with a relatively small amount of design intelligence thrown in.
But what does design intelligence actually amount to? Is design intelligence anything more than a mutant idea or two, set apart from the accumulated knowledge base, which happens to work well or catch the eye of the marketing man?
If we look at the fossil record, we see no evidence of homo sapiens walking the planet with the dinosaurs. Similarly, when we examine the design record, we see no evidence of Stone Age man having designed a quad-core microprocessor or plasma TV.
In neither case were the underlying conditions sufficiently ”advanced’ to allow these events to occur, despite the intelligence of the would-be designers in the latter case.
I suggest that Paley’s analogy points not to intelligent design, as he intended, but unwittingly to the process of evolution via natural selection. That is, apply mutant ”left field’ ideas to the evolved, accumulated knowledge base, see which work and which don’t, update the knowledge base and move on.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by bluescat48, posted 01-26-2008 2:18 PM dogrelata has not replied
 Message 4 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 3:01 PM dogrelata has replied
 Message 9 by Buzsaw, posted 01-26-2008 5:52 PM dogrelata has replied
 Message 28 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-28-2008 12:32 AM dogrelata has replied

  
AdminNosy
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Message 2 of 54 (451130)
01-26-2008 1:37 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 3 of 54 (451143)
01-26-2008 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by dogrelata
01-26-2008 12:43 PM


dogrelata
I suggest that Paley’s analogy points not to intelligent design, as he intended, but unwittingly to the process of evolution via natural selection. That is, apply mutant ”left field’ ideas to the evolved, accumulated knowledge base, see which work and which don’t, update the knowledge base and move on.
Interesting point. I agree that stone age men would have had the same capabilities as current humans if they had access to modern evolved knowledge, and the analogy of the watch does seem to point more toward
natural selection rather than ID.
Edited by bluescat48, : punctuation

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 4 of 54 (451155)
01-26-2008 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by dogrelata
01-26-2008 12:43 PM


Re-
Hi dogelata,
dogrelata writes:
I suggest that Paley's analogy points not to intelligent design, as he intended, but unwittingly to the process of evolution via natural selection. That is, apply mutant 'left field' ideas to the evolved, accumulated knowledge base, see which work and which don't, update the knowledge base and move on.
dogrelata writes:
Take an example of something like the modern car or automobile. Its lineage can be traced back to vehicles such as the more humble Roman chariot and beyond. Whilst these two vehicles share some common traits, the technologies employed are literally eons apart. But what if we compare this year's car to last year's model. The design differences are going to be minor, as car design tends to advance in small increments.
So from these statements am I supposed to assume that the van in my driveway just happened by chance.
I really prefer to believe that over the last 100+ years many designers, engineers, and manufacturers worked together to give me the sophisticated piece of equipment setting in my driveway.
Now as far as the stone age man and the watch.
If he had the knowledge to build the watch. Where would he buy the material to build it out of?
Then what would he use it for? So he would not be late for his Dr.'s appointment?
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by dogrelata, posted 01-26-2008 12:43 PM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by dogrelata, posted 01-26-2008 3:58 PM ICANT has replied

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5312 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 5 of 54 (451171)
01-26-2008 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by ICANT
01-26-2008 3:01 PM


Re: Re-
ICANT writes:
So from these statements am I supposed to assume that the van in my driveway just happened by chance.
I don’t see any reference to chance anywhere in the post. Perhaps you need to go back and read what is actually written and take things from there.
ICANT writes:
I really prefer to believe that over the last 100+ years many designers, engineers, and manufacturers worked together to give me the sophisticated piece of equipment setting in my driveway.
Now you’re starting to get the hang of this . follow your argument through and you might begin to see why Paley’s analogy seems a little odd to me.
ICANT writes:
Now as far as the stone age man and the watch.
If he had the knowledge to build the watch. Where would he buy the material to build it out of?
Again, follow your argument through. Paley insisted that complex design is evidence of an intelligent designer, but you make the point that it’s evidence of a whole lot more than that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 3:01 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 4:24 PM dogrelata has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 6 of 54 (451181)
01-26-2008 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by dogrelata
01-26-2008 3:58 PM


Re: Re-
Hi dogrelata,
=dogrelataAgain, follow your argument through. Paley insisted that complex design is evidence of an intelligent designer, but you make the point that it’s evidence of a whole lot more than that.
How so?
I mearly stated that I thought my van was designed by someone who knew what they were doing. The engineer figured out how to make it work. The manufacturers made the parts. Then somebody had to put it together.
Now if one person did all this he would be some smart fellow wouldn't you agree?
I doubt very seriously if you could take all the proper parts for an automobile and put them in a shop. Take a bunch of first graders and tell them to put it together and them put a working automobile together.
BTW I think the idea of Creation ID as now touted is stupid.
But I do believe in creation by God.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by dogrelata, posted 01-26-2008 3:58 PM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by BMG, posted 01-26-2008 5:06 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 8 by dogrelata, posted 01-26-2008 5:20 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 10 by dwise1, posted 01-26-2008 5:54 PM ICANT has replied

  
BMG
Member (Idle past 208 days)
Posts: 357
From: Southwestern U.S.
Joined: 03-16-2006


Message 7 of 54 (451185)
01-26-2008 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by ICANT
01-26-2008 4:24 PM


Re: Re-
I mearly stated that I thought my van was designed by someone who knew what they were doing.
The person who "knew" how to design a van did it based on the accumulation of prior knowledge handed down from engineers prior. 2008 model vans compared to 1982 models look very different, and, in a sense, unique.
But, if you were to follow the change of van models from 82', to 83', and so on, you would generally see gradual changes to the van's design.
I hope this helps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 4:24 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 8:59 PM BMG has not replied

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5312 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 8 of 54 (451188)
01-26-2008 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by ICANT
01-26-2008 4:24 PM


Re: Re-
ICANT writes:
Now if one person did all this he would be some smart fellow wouldn't you agree?
ICANT writes:
But I do believe in creation by God.
Well it’s your god, you created it, so I guess it’s just as smart as you want it or need it to be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 4:24 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 8:51 PM dogrelata has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 54 (451196)
01-26-2008 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by dogrelata
01-26-2008 12:43 PM


Hi Dogrelata.
The problems with your assessment of Paley are:
1. That the evolution of the models you've cited such as the watch and the automobile was effected all the way via accumulative ID via multitudes of intelligent designers working together to effect the alleged evolution of the complicated systems observed. None, nada of it was via natural selection.
2. The automobile (abe: wheeled vehicles) and the watch (abe: instruments of time) did not evolve. They were hand crafted/created all the way up from the simplest to the most complex by intelligent human inventors/designers/engineers/craftsmen/manufacturers.
Edited by Buzsaw, : as noted

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by dogrelata, posted 01-26-2008 12:43 PM dogrelata has replied

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 10 of 54 (451197)
01-26-2008 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by ICANT
01-26-2008 4:24 PM


Re: Re-
=dogrelataAgain, follow your argument through. Paley insisted that complex design is evidence of an intelligent designer, but you make the point that it’s evidence of a whole lot more than that.
How so?
It's one thing to design something, but it's an entirely different matter to actually produce it. Is there an intelligent manufacturer to actually implement the design created by the intelligent designer?
For example (and this is from memory, so pardon if I get a detail wrong), in the 19th century Babbage designed two computers, a "differential engine" and an "integral engine". Parts of the differential engine were built, though it taxed the manufacturers' craftsmanship. The design of the integral engine was never built because it was beyond the means of manufacturers to actually produce. Though his friend, Ada Augusta, Lady Lovelace, wrote a number of programs for it, making her the world's first computer programmer. The DOD language, Ada, was named after her.
So there is far more to design than coming up with a design: the thing has to actually get built.

{When you search for God, y}ou can't go to the people who believe already. They've made up their minds and want to convince you of their own personal heresy.
("The Jehovah Contract", AKA "Der Jehova-Vertrag", by Viktor Koman, 1984)
Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the world.
(from filk song "Word of God" by Dr. Catherine Faber, No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML)
Of course, if Dr. Mortimer's surmise should be correct and we are dealing with forces outside the ordinary laws of Nature, there is an end of our investigation. But we are bound to exhaust all other hypotheses before falling back upon this one.
(Sherlock Holmes in The Hound of the Baskervilles)
Gentry's case depends upon his halos remaining a mystery. Once a naturalistic explanation is discovered, his claim of a supernatural origin is washed up. So he will not give aid or support to suggestions that might resolve the mystery. Science works toward an increase in knowledge; creationism depends upon a lack of it. Science promotes the open-ended search; creationism supports giving up and looking no further. It is clear which method Gentry advocates.
("Gentry's Tiny Mystery -- Unsupported by Geology" by J. Richard Wakefield, Creation/Evolution Issue XXII, Winter 1987-1988, pp 31-32)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 4:24 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 8:48 PM dwise1 has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 11 of 54 (451230)
01-26-2008 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by dwise1
01-26-2008 5:54 PM


Re-designer.
Hi dwise1,
So there is far more to design than coming up with a design: the thing has to actually get built.
You quoted down to my How so?
The next paragraph in Message 6 says:
quote:
I mearly stated that I thought my van was designed by someone who knew what they were doing. The engineer figured out how to make it work. The manufacturers made the parts. Then somebody had to put it together.
I am glad to see you say it did take design.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by dwise1, posted 01-26-2008 5:54 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by dwise1, posted 01-27-2008 3:02 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 12 of 54 (451231)
01-26-2008 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by dogrelata
01-26-2008 5:20 PM


Re- You created him
Hi dogrelata,
dogrelata writes:
Well it’s your god, you created it, so I guess it’s just as smart as you want it or need it to be.
I will introduce you to Him one day.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by dogrelata, posted 01-26-2008 5:20 PM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by dogrelata, posted 01-27-2008 7:48 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 13 of 54 (451232)
01-26-2008 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by BMG
01-26-2008 5:06 PM


Re-design
Hi Infixion,
Infixion writes:
I hope this helps.
My first van was a 1969 dodge van.
There is a lot of difference from then until now.
But I remember in drafting class in 1952 there was a couple of guys drawing pictures of vehicles like my van in the driveway.
Maybe they are still drawing them.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by BMG, posted 01-26-2008 5:06 PM BMG has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by RAZD, posted 01-26-2008 9:51 PM ICANT has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 14 of 54 (451243)
01-26-2008 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ICANT
01-26-2008 8:59 PM


Re: Re-design
My first van was a 1969 dodge van.
Well there's your problem ... you should have had a
It would teach you humility and a sense of adventure.
As well as the realization that design doesn't mean it works ...
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ICANT, posted 01-26-2008 8:59 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 15 of 54 (451250)
01-26-2008 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by RAZD
01-26-2008 9:51 PM


Re: Re-design
Hi RAZD,
RAZD writes:
It would teach you humility and a sense of adventure.
I forgot all about what that monster looked like we had two of those for church buses.
Thanks for the memories.
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by RAZD, posted 01-26-2008 9:51 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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