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Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
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Author | Topic: Intelligent Design Class to be taught at Cornell University | |||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1966 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
I'd be very interested to see this... fancy starting another thread? I didn't start this one and if a person can't even get that simple fact straight then they are unlikely to be able to engage on the rather more subtle aspects of evidential ID (shit! only post 75 ...don't think that will hold 'em for long) More seriously, I don't hold (nor have I held here) that there is evidence to satisfy at the court of scientific method (as opposed to Paul K's court of ToE). Not least because I'm not in a postion to evaluate the evidential arguments that may have been put forth. If ID is indeed a pseudoscience then it first needs to establish ways whereby its hypothesis can enter the fray. That is what I am investigating here.
What they are doing is searching for evidence. If you could propose a way of searching for evidence of an intelligent designer, I'm sure quite a few people would be interested in doing the searching... Do me a favor Crevo, write, in about 5 sentences, the basis of what I have been discussing over the last fair number of posts. A hint lies in the second to last line of the last paragraph. Take a cheap shot and our intercourse is over - the intent behind your recent entry is clear and uninteresting to me. Make a fair stab and we can engage Agreed?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17826 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: It isn't mine. I haven't mentioned anything which would fit thast description. If it's anybody's it seems to be yours.
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2ice_baked_taters Member (Idle past 5876 days) Posts: 566 From: Boulder Junction WI. Joined: |
I am curious, What was to be the agenda...what structure, from what point of view or take is this class being aproached?
I would have to agree that the seti program in many ways paralells this. We are seeking evidence of inteligent life we have no proof of, based on our definition of what inteligence is.
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iano Member (Idle past 1966 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Will's whole problem with ID is that it is "boring," that it gives the same answer to every inquiry (maybe that is just his "atheism" comeing out)about proteins. As per usual Brad, you deal in realm not open to me. But I managed to hang on for long enough to get this. If the boring answer is "its irreducibly complex" in ID, is it any less boring that "random mutation and natural selection" in ToE? Both can be assumed to be capable of anything at all. One takes time the other not necessarily. Big deal. The fun I imagine in dissecting anything is the how and why - which both views can fulfill. The design employs a bolt (how?) when welding would have been cheaper and easier (why?)
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iano Member (Idle past 1966 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
You seem to me to be asking that potential entrance points into science for ID take account of ToE. It doesn't have to do that to enter. If it succeeded in having an entry point deemed sufficient (an acceptable hypothesis) as a route of investigation then the fact that ToE might NOW have better evidence is shooting ones wad a tad early.
You would have to wait and see what it produces to find out whether ToEs version of events better fulfills the observations. You seem to want to close the stable door before the horse has bolted. Are you afraid or something? Afraid you wouldn't be able to catch it again? It sure seems so to me.
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iano Member (Idle past 1966 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
I would have to agree that the seti program in many ways paralells this. We are seeking evidence of inteligent life we have no proof of, based on our definition of what inteligence is. Pull up a stump and cast a spell 2i. Your a little thin on moral support but I appreciate the sentiment
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2ice_baked_taters Member (Idle past 5876 days) Posts: 566 From: Boulder Junction WI. Joined: |
If we were already aware of a creators existance the search for inteligent design would be mute wouldn't it? I believe in this instance you do not mean design but rather intent. What science searches for intent?
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iano Member (Idle past 1966 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
What science searches for intent? A science that supposes an intelligence out there. A bit like SETI as you say. There is nothing unscientific about such a hypothesis. What matters is whether how you plan on going about discovering it is scientific or not. And if using human intelligence as a benchmark for comparision a la SETI then I fail to see why ID can't employ similar methods Can you? {AbE} consider ID as being a hopelessly young version of science. pseudo science now perhaps. Some folk observe and come to the (in their gut) conclusion that IDdidit. They don't necessarily have to conclude God of the Bible. Just ID. They are convinced. But they cannot 'prove' it scienctificmethodologocally. So they begin the long trudge uphill. Maybe they'll get to proto science and then science. Maybe they won't. But if their gut says so, what else do you expect them to do? You would have to admire the heroism - even if it turns out to be misplaced. Or you can sit at your lofty position on the hill of dead-cert ToE and hurl rocks down at them "in defence of the faith" Giants of science have never been the ones simply hurling rocks. Ever. This message has been edited by iano, 27-Apr-2006 12:21 AM
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2ice_baked_taters Member (Idle past 5876 days) Posts: 566 From: Boulder Junction WI. Joined: |
Why is it that the question of a creator seems to be taboo in science? One would think it a worthy pursuit. Certainly more worth while than a theory that basically embraces the idea that stuff happens.
The perception of randomness that many have come to call the process of evolution may not be correct. It is an assumption. If one can teach that something that is not fully understood is random, why not give the perception that it is not random equal time? Why is one perspective more valid or less valid than the other? How does one prove randomness? Randomness is a perception is it not? To my understanding randomness has no support in fact. If one thinks in terms of cause and effect there is no true random is there? Isn't it only relative based on point of view?
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iano Member (Idle past 1966 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Edited msg above to you 2i
Whilst I think that what you say has merit, I willingly agree with many here who say that the board on which the game of science is played just doesn't permit the kind of thinking you hold to here. You wouldn't just be allowing the notion of God in the door but every half-brained idea that anyone ever had. Science must be science or else the nod of approval from science is worthless. If one wants to investigate God scientifically then scientifically it must be carried out. This is not to say that God must be demonstrable in scientific terms in order to exist. Science is only one descriptive language. And it is one which never proves 100% so an escape route is always available (*sigh* wait for it) Its the wriggling dishonesty that seems to want to abort the foetus to offset the life change it may herald which I find most disturbing People can use Science as a shield at times. This message has been edited by iano, 27-Apr-2006 12:56 AM
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nator Member (Idle past 2195 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Er, no. Pseudoscience never gets closer to being science. Ever. "Pseudo" means "false".
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ramoss Member (Idle past 638 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Well, a 'creator' in the way you are using that term is 'supernatural'.
There is no way to test for such a 'creator'. It does not fit into the methology for science. And, part of any scientific theory is not only testablity, but being able to falsify something. How can you falsify a supernatural creator? WOuld you WANT to put God to such a test? As for randomness.. we are not in a deterministic universe. Quantum mechanics have proven this. We are in a universe that it is probablity oriented, not deterministic.
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nator Member (Idle past 2195 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Not really. From the wiki For millennia, philosophers have argued that the complexity of nature indicates the existence of a purposeful natural or supernatural designer/creator. The first recorded arguments for a natural designer come from Greek philosophy. The philosophical concept of the "Logos" is typically credited to Heraclitus (c. 535-c.475 BCE), a Pre-Socratic philosopher, and is briefly explained in his extant fragments.[10] Plato (c. 427-c. 347 BCE) posited a natural "demiurge" of supreme wisdom and intelligence as the creator of the cosmos in his work Timaeus. Aristotle (c. 384-322 BCE) also developed the idea of a natural creator of the cosmos, often referred to as the "Prime Mover" in his work Metaphysics. In his de Natura Deorum (On the Nature of the Gods) Cicero (c. 106-c. 43 BCE) stated, "The divine power is to be found in a principle of reason which pervades the whole of nature."[11]
The use of this line of reasoning as applied to a supernatural designer has come to be known as the teleological argument for the existence of God. The most notable forms of this argument were expressed by Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologiae[12] (thirteenth century), design being the fifth of Aquinas' five proofs for God's existence, and William Paley in his book Natural Theology (1802), where he uses the watchmaker analogy, which is still used in intelligent design arguments. In the early 19th century such arguments led to the development of what was called Natural theology, the study of biology as a search to understand the "mind of God". This movement fueled the passion for collecting fossils and other biological specimens that ultimately led to Darwin's theory of the origin of species. Similar reasoning postulating a divine designer is embraced today by many believers in theistic evolution, who consider modern science and the theory of evolution to be fully compatible with the concept of a supernatural designer. Intelligent design in the late 20th century can be seen as a modern reframing of natural theology seeking to change the basis of science and undermine evolution theory. As evolutionary theory has expanded to explain more phenomena, the examples that are held up as evidence of design have changed. But the essential argument remains the same: complex systems imply a designer. In the past, examples that have been offered included the eye (optical system) and the feathered wing; current examples are mostly biochemical: protein functions, blood clotting, and bacteria flagella (see irreducible complexity). The earliest known modern version of intelligent design began, according to Dr Barbara Forrest, "in the early 1980s with the publication of The Mystery of Life's Origin (MoLO 1984) by creationist chemist Charles B. Thaxton with Walter L. Bradley and Roger L. Olsen. Thaxton worked for Jon A. Buell at the Foundation for Thought and Ethics (FTE) in Texas, a religious organization that published MoLO."[13] Intelligent design deliberately does not try to identify or name the specific agent of creation - it merely states that one (or more) must exist. While intelligent design itself does not name the designer, the personal view of many proponents is that the designer is the Christian god. Whether this was a genuine feature of the concept or just a posture taken to avoid alienating those who would separate religion from science-teaching has been a matter of great debate between supporters and critics of intelligent design. The Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District court ruling held the latter to be the case.
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iano Member (Idle past 1966 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Pseudoscience never gets closer to being science. Ever. Not even if that which inspired it in the first place finds a way of meeting the criteria for protoscience? If you want to answer the question then please do Smart comments and digs, then save it..and read the sub
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iano Member (Idle past 1966 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Do you even know what the discussion here is Schraf? Cut n pastes indicate not.
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