Intelligent design. Philosophy of ignorance.

Actually NJ, big people refrain from condescending behavior and arrogance.It must be your fallen nature you are putting on display.

John 10:10 if you subscribe to nature be designed by a intelligent designer then one has to wonder on the nature of the designer.When proponents think of the Intelligent Designer they often think of the sunsets, kittens and puppies.However nature is chock full of diabolic parasitic organism that are creatively "designed" to the task of taking advantage of some other organism.Consider trichinella. The trichina worm pass into the small intestine of a mammal and, in 1-2 days, become mature. After mating, the adult female worm lay eggs. These Eggs develop into immature worms which travel through the arteries and are transported to muscle. Within the muscles, the worms curl into a ball and encyst. Once in this state the worm direct the surrounding cells. The cell is now called a nurse cell and this cell begins to redirect a net of blood vessels in order to provide added nutrition to the larva inside.Wonderfully complex and intricate? Does the provide the same degree of awe and wonder as a beautiful sunset?

Yes but you are only looking at the rainbow and sunset side. The example I gave had nothing to do with mankind's use for good or evil. John lets look at purpose, plan and product of just one of many examples.The Guinea Worm is a wonderfully designed parasite with a multi-step that involves humans and other mammals. The larvae of this marvelous creature infects tiny water fleas. When people drink the water with fleas and the guinea worm larvae the flea dies and releases the worm. The guinea worms matures in the intestines and eventually copulates. The male is absorbed by the female as she continues on her sinister purpose. The adult female is now full of thousands of tiny larvae. Starting from the small intestine she works her way thru the body.In the final stage, this yard long thin worms erupts from legs, feet and even eye sockets. As she forces her way out she exudes acid under the skin causing severe and searing pain.This pain drives the infected victim to seek relieve in the nearest pool of water, whereupon the worm discharges her load of larvae to start the cycle over again. Sometimes the worm dies in the victim as they attempt remove the worm. This can cause a painful death as the worm rots away.Check these links:Error - seattlepi.com
guinea worm - Google SearchThe creature described is wonderfully, incredibly and creatively “designed” to their purpose of propagation. This creature, and many others, are very specific to the task and did not just take up this way of life after some fall.The question, which you have avoided:If there is an Intelligent Designer what does this example convey about the designer?When you accept the Intelligent Design philosophy as a refuge from rational thought, you have accept the full consequence.Edited by iceage, : spelingEdited by iceage, : No reason given.Edited by Admin, : Reduce image size.

They may as well. From what I see they go around and placing sticky notes on this process and that mechanism saying "We ain't got a clue, godunit".Unfortunately real science slowly plods along removing the sticky notes one by one.

Quick question, what did the Guinea Worm do before the fall?Did the Guinea Worm evolve after the fall from some higher and nobler way of life to its present very specific methods of boring holes thru human flesh, softening the tissue in front of its path with a very specially "designed" acid.Did the predators evolve sharp serrated teeth, short meat consuming intestinal system, clutching claws, strong muscular bone crunching jaw structures, etc. after the fall?Did prey evolve the various defense mechanisms such a armor, spikes, horns, speed, clubs, poison, mimicry after the fall?And the big question:Are these post-fall features Intelligently Designed?When you couple God with Intelligent Design there are some difficult consequences.

John, The Guinea Worm is highly specialized as are most parasites. Their reproductive cycle and sequence of events are multi-step, very complex and adapted to a specific set of circumstances.So I see the ID'st has a limited set of options here:

Extreme rapid evolution. For example the Guinea Worm was sitting in a pond slurping algae until the fall and then "evolved" to adapt a very different specific set of circumstances. The reproduction cycle would have to have changed dramatically. Specialized gear like the ability to manufacture acid to borrow itself thru muscle would have to evolve. The digestive system would have to alter to fit it new "alternative lifestyle".

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Other examples, of course, would include creatures like the T-Rex would suddenly have to "evolve" teeth, claws, intestines, Jaws, etc to transition from eating fruit/vegies to meat.

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In addition, prey would have to evolve all the defense mechanisms such as horns, long legs for speed, amour, etc.

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This all would have to occur in a very short period of time and would be evolution with a capital E. Sounds like a really bad sci-fi.

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Are these new biological apparatuses Intelligently Designed or not.

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A Second (or third) creation. At the point of the fall there was a second creation to add to the existing creation all the wonderful diabolical parasites that we have today.

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If so, who was in charge of this creation God or the devil?

GDR If you believe the intelligent designer intentionally designed all that we see what is your thoughts on the Guinea Worm parasite discussed here Message 98? I have no problem accepting that. In fact, it is somewhat exciting to think we maybe the founding species of self-aware self-directed life that will extend beyond this warm little womb that is earth.

Good read thanks.I was particularly interested in the attempts to somehow disprove the interesting emerging evidence that self-replicating artificial organism can mutate unpredictably or evolve as hinted at in the Nature Paper by Pennock. This is damning to the ID point-of-view that information can be created by purely random processes. I do not see how Dixon of the Discovery Institute ...err Biologic Institute ... is going to discredit this by some negative case or counter example - all you need to do is show that it can happen in certain situations - not necessarily every case.My guess is they are going to try to show the improbability in biological systems as compared to artificial systems via statistics. This is a fools errand as statistics greatly depend on assumptions.

The earth foundations? measuring line? cornerstone?.. This is man impersonating God. Sorry you believe that.Make no mistake I am humbled by the creation but I think the OT does a lousy job (excuse the pun) describing the creator. Please answer, and not with poetry, is the Guinea Worm designed by the intelligent designer? If not, then how do we determine what is intelligent designed and what is not.

Think of it. The Intelligent Design club is now justing starting to do some "lab science" but they want the principles taught in schools prior to doing any "lab science". And they think the conventional scientific establishment is arrogant.

Thanks for the transcript Anglagard.Their implied conclusion thatimprobability == intelligently designis fundamentally flawed.First the coefficients in the Drake equation have a lot of variability and there is considerable disagreement on the values. For example finding life on Mars or some other planet/moon would significantly effect this equation.In addition, extrapolating of what we know about life on Earth is probably wrong. As Jar pointed out life fills a variety of niches on earth and many are not what we would call hospitable. One of my favorite movie quotes is Ian Malcolm in Jurassic Park when he says "Life will find a way". Life is a property of matter.Finally the vastness of the universe overwhelms the low probability of life evolving.As far as probabilities go what do you think the probability of you being born given a starting position of 10000 years ago. There are a very large number of very minor events that would have effected the event of you being born. You are astronomically improbable but there are you are - amazing isn't.

Sure I need help, don't we all.Now DB can you be more substantive and less evasive.To the point why does improbability require an intelligent designer as your reference implies?I question the low probability. However, given low probability why does that require an intelligent designer? I can think of a large number of low probability events that occur, but do not require an outside designer as an explanation.Additionally Modulus did not misunderstand at all. The immensity of the universe (ie the number of opportunities) counter the low probability.Yes the "probabilities are ... multiplied together" resulting in a low combined probability. However, you also multiple the probability by the number of opportunities to get an expected value.Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

No he is not. The probabilities in the Drake equation are not scientific fact but best case guesses given the currently available information and there are a range of guesses. And you are a credit to what community?

Memetics: the theoretical and empirical science that studies the replication, spread and evolution of memesMemetics - Wikipedia
Jom Emit
Memetics

Earlier you said there is no empirical evidence for memes. I pointed out there is empirical evidence.For example, the speed at which a meme spreads has been analyzed so that one can predict how fast a meme will spread through a population (within the minds of humans at least). There are papers that empirically derive "transmission coefficients" based on empirical data. OK From a practical point of view, if a method of analyzing cultural changes works and finds value in predicting outcomes and explaining phenomenon that is better than a alternating method that does not. Can you elaborate. I am fuzzy on how Theism predicts or explains cultural change. I am not even sure how the concept of a meme is apposed to intelligent design?