Importance of Original Sin

Over in the thread Why prefer the Biblical creation account over those of other religions?, Message 133, I inquired about the necessity of the story in Genesis about Eve taking part in the eating of an apple and being tricked by a talking snake and the role of this portion is the whole reason for jesus. It was my understanding that this story is told to explain why we are dirty vile sinners in need of redemption; even at birth, thus the necessity for the jesus character.Now, I'm no bible scholar, so I can't think of any other bible story that would explain why we are born with sin. In my mind, this story is "the fall" and is the entire reason we even started sinning in the first place, what with Adam and Eve being god's perfect creations and all.If this story is not vital at all to the necessity of the jesus character, how does one explain it? Is there some other reason we are natural sinners in need of salvation?{abe}
I did do a forum search with "original sin" in the title and came up emptyhanded. If someone else finds a suitable existing thread that this could be discussed in, that would be fine too.Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.Edited by AdminPD, : Typos

Both of those passages refer to one of those two characters (Adam or Eve) and how they caused the sin. Ok, so in this trend, the god character created us flawed? We were doomed from the start? He created us with the need for the jesus character and the need for salvation? Well....duh. Jesus died for our sin. Where did the sin come from, then? I thought god was happy with his alleged creation? Can you explain what Paul has to do with this? I'm not being argumentative, I just really don't know why you mention th epaul character in this vein.

You mentioned Romans 5:12-21: Emphasis mine. You also mention 1 Corinthians 15:22: Because that's what it says. If there is a different version that doesn't say adam, I'm all ears. Like I said, I'm the furthest thing from a bible scholar. I just know the xianity that I know, was raised around, heard in the church I went to, and see all around me. The way it looks to me is that it is commonly understood that eve was tricked by a talking snake into eating an apple from a tree and god went on his spiel about birthing pains and adam working the soil and whatnot; original sin, we are all doomed because of that dumb broad.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Good point. I hadn't looked at it or thought of it that way. This is also a good point, one that is perhaps lost (or apologetically waved away) by many. I'm not about to get into apologetics (because it's a fkin fairy tale anyways) but they were instructed first to NOT eat from it, so you could say they disobeyed the first person (god) that gave them an order.

I completely agree with you that the idea of original sin is fucking retarded. But that doesn't mean that those crazy christians don't buy it.....You seemed to make the claim (in the other thread) that christians don't actually believe in original sin as I thought it to be. Now, it seems, you are just saying how stupid it is. I, too, think it's stupid....but I'm an atheist so my opinion on the matter means fuck all.Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

With a pretty atheistic stance on the bible and religion. So tell me, if not for "original sin" (as described in this thread and accepted by almost all other xians), why jesus? What was his primary reason for coming to earth? Where did the sin come from?Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Ok, I can dig that. However, why do we sin in the first place? How were we able to sin? If we were created "in god's image", why is there evil? Or were we not created in god's image? Were we created with sin? If we were, then that means god has sin/evil.Now, if you can say were weren't "created" and are a theistic evolutionist: why did god take so fucking long? Humanity has been around for a long damned time, but he waited until just 2000 years ago to send himself to save us from himself? Then I see no need for this jesus character. I don't need a third party to absolve me of my wrong doings. I can just say "damn, I screwed up. Lesson learned, better not do that again.". ya know, the way millions of people do every day that live just fine without religion or god. His teachings? Perhaps not. But his necessity? I think so. Did he not come to "wash the world (that means EVERYONE, no?) of sin?Perhaps I am coming at this a tad basic, but I see it this way: take someone who is a good person and has never heard of the bible. If we "choose" whether or not to do bad things ("sin"), why does this person need redemption or salvation? From what?

My apologies to all concerned (Percy) for re-hashing an existing topic. I didn't find this thread when I looked. If you want to possibly merge the two 9move all these replies over there), that's fine. Admittedly, I haven't actually looked anything up on it. I suppose I would rather have the opinions of religious persons and hear the different spin they put on it. It has already become apparent that it's open to interpretation, just like the rest of the bible. I just hope it doesn't come off as me not wanting to do my homework.... In my opinion, the biblical matters have left themselves so open to different interpretations, every opinion on it is just as valid as the next. It's impossible to tell ANY religious person "you're reading it wrong".

The way I understand it is that had that dumb broad NOT eaten the apple, we'd all still be in god's image: no evil. The world would be as it was when the god character made it. Like I said to PD: if we truly were personally responsible, why do we need some other person (jesus) to save us? Simplistic, yes. But then again, I'm not keen on the apologetics of the whole thing, since I take it all as bollocks anyways. I thought we got the free will from god?

Control ourselves from what? That implication gets shot down when you have perfectly good atheists who are more moral than people who claim to "have the spirit of the lord" or whatever. That is true. However, I am coming at this topic as a skeptic and with the viewpoint that they all claim to be "the truth". Once one sees religion for what it is, it's kinda hard to take any of it seriously.... I would have to assume those that continue to believe after seeing "the light" stop being christian and become deists of sorts, but that is strictly my opinion.

Now that I've gotten around to replying to most everyone, I'll add a bit more to my own understanding. I admit (again) that I have a very basic understanding of xianity, and that is all the more understanding I care to acquire. I apologize if that comes off as dishonest, but I feel as though I know enough about it to call shenanigans and it's just not a subject I care to look into as deeply as a lot of the rest of you already have. That is not to say I won't check out links provided to understand the current subject matter, I will. I hope you don't take that as me being a dishonest debater, I would just rather hear individual takes on it. It's just that there are sooooo many different interpretaions of even what I feel are basic tenets that it's difficult to get as full an understanding.That said; the reason I have the view that I do is because every church I've been to, every religious person I have asked, every time I have seen the question arise: "why is there evil if god is so good and loving", the answer is "the fall". Now, I always assumed "the fall" to be the subject in question because, well, that's what I've learned.

Orly? No sin... Now there's sin. All because of the eating of an apple. How can you preced this by saying there is no discussion of original sin?I will add that this is precisely the thinking I had coming into this topic: makind was created without sin. Then, sin was introduced after they ate the apple. If that tiny event didn't occur, we would have no need for the jesus character.

Oh, I should? Why should I know that? He's your god, not mine. Questions "like" what? Forgive me if the god character I've been fed isn't a human construct. It is through my atheism that I have learned that he is, but not from christians. Forgive me if I been told, by countless chrisitans, about god's perfect nature. It's amazing how much of a condescending cunt you can be. I'm here asking questions. If you don't have an answer, or if my question is off the wall: correct me or say "I don't know". how hard is that? Apparently, quite a few christians believe he was. Why did jesus die for our sins?Jesus died for all our sins

I learned a couple things from this thread. I came in with questions that have, IMO, yet to really be effectively answered. However, it is not for a lack of the thread participants efforts. I think I see now how the religious feel when they attempt to discuss their beliefs and are met with dissenting views. When it comes to fairy tales; it's difficult to tell the real from the fake, I guess. It's difficult to see some things from a different angle. How the hell is that sentence even possible when I think it's all nonsense anyways?????I came into this thread, not with conviction, not with a belief held close to me, but with a question about something that I had (somewhat) been taught and (somewhat)raised around. Something that seemed to be pervasive throughout christian culture....at least the christian culture I witness firsthand. It seemed as though I was backed into a corner to defend something I don't even believe, just by virtue that I wasn't convinced by any of the reasoning that was offered.Call me stubborn, hard headed, whatever. I feel that some of the responses would have been different if it wasn't so obvious that I am an atheist. I feel they would have been different if I was a naive believer. ....but that is just my opinion.As I said upthread on a couple occasions: I didn't exactly care to get into a lengthy I-need-to-do-homework debate about this because frankly, I could give two shits about it all (at least as far as delving as deep into as you lot do). I just thought it odd what jar said in the other thread. This all would have been better in the thread jaywill mentioned.....if at all.

Erm...wasn't Adam right there with her? So he was right there with her, but he didn't hear the snake?