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Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1036 of 1135 (840702)
10-03-2018 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1026 by LamarkNewAge
10-02-2018 9:51 PM


Re: Jaywill first (Faith's points later,but not her ad hominems against unbelievers
quote:
The scripture says nothing of anybody ELSE keeping their property except the couple you just mentioned.

That is true. But this instance was recorded for our teaching.

This instance was recorded. Whether other instances occurred is speculation.

quote:

The scripture says every other Christian believer, at the time, gave all of their possessions.

Generally, it highlights that this was their practice.

quote:

Just prior to this incident, it says ALL gave everything. Unmistakable words in the text. Do you, Jaywill, disagree with the literal interpretation of the chapter 4 text which says that ALL GAVE EVERYTHING?

No. I do not disagree with the general information.
To think there were NO exceptions may be unrealistic.
Ananias and his wife were exceptions.

The "all" already has a qualifier.

quote:

Now, some logic.

I don't know if you will agree with my logic, but doesn't is seem LOGICAL to assume that there would have been lots, of the thousands of believers, who would have kept their property if it was voluntary?


Logically, I think we could compare it to the Israelites offering freely theur ornamants for the building of the tabernacle. Eventually they had so much that they needed no more.

I do not mean an exact parallel. I mean the over all general practice was a communal trust that all things could be combined into a common pool.

Peter's word indicates that some had freedom to keep a portion or perhaps all as their own if they did not have the faith to participate. Isn't that the tone of his rebuke of the couple?

The numbers of such similar cases can only be speculated upon.

My point really was that we should not understand that a "Thou Shalt Be Communal" like COMMANDMENT was issued. This was a spontaneous outpouring of good will and empathy.

Latter by the time of the epistles of Paul generosity and liberality were more depending upon nor a general outpouring but individual spiritual growth. This is in fact probably harder then going along with a crowd.

Latter, before God and in the Christian conscience men and women were to give of their resources according to the grace of God they had. See Second Corinthains.

quote:

Taxes aren't voluntary today, for a reason.

You are going into an area beyond my interest.
This account was concerning the CHURCH - the called out community. She is in the world but not OF the world.

Superimposing all this on wordly government practices delves into practices which do not even require God or God's salvation.

Worldly government may IMITATE things read in the Bible.
This is somewhat like a dog walking on its hind legs "like" a man.

It is not the same thing for it does not require the grace of Christ within.

quote:

The text says Ananias and Sapphire had the power to give the money but lied.

I agree.

quote:

People lie on their taxes, but it is the act of not paying them that is the issue.

The rebuke from the Apostle Peter to the couple, however, was about their under appreciating the knowledge of the Holy Spirit. Outwardly, they wanted to look good too. Peter showed them and all else that in the church there should not be play acting to look good. All was based on inward reality.

This is totally different from the IRS demanding that a citizen fork over the revenue being withheld against proportions demanded by law.

You can see the difference, can't you?

Peter didn't say "Ananias and Saphira, You OWE us, the church in Jerusalem such and such number of dollars!"

quote:

Ananias and Sapphire WERE IN THE DRIVER'S SEAT.

I agree.

quote:

Call it the "Captain Power dressing down"

Not sure I follow that.
But there was an outpouring of liberal empathy and generosity.

quote:

YOU HAVE THE POWER!

He said that they had every right to withhold what they did. They should not PRETEND that they were doing otherwise for the sake of looking good to everyone.

What they were BEFORE GOD was what was important.
God the Holy Spirit knows all, sees all.

The local church was not being run by mere men.
It was being overseen by men in the Holy Spirit who cannot be deceived.

quote:

(Don't torture the text!)

I didn't torture any text.
And I have experienced some and heard of this kind of thing because I have practiced the New Testament church life for over 40 years.

I know what it is to have a powerful revival off the Holy Spirit come through.
Similar things I have seen happen.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1026 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-02-2018 9:51 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1037 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 12:27 PM jaywill has not yet responded
 Message 1083 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-04-2018 7:52 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15412
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 1037 of 1135 (840707)
10-03-2018 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1036 by jaywill
10-03-2018 12:18 PM


Re: Jaywill first (Faith's points later,but not her ad hominems against unbelievers
jaywill writes:

He said that they had every right to withhold what they did.


Clearly not. They were rebuked for holding back. There could not have been a "right" to hold back. The KJV says they had the power over the money. Similarly, we have the power to murder each other but not the right to exercise the power.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1036 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2018 12:18 PM jaywill has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1038 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 3:39 PM ringo has responded
 Message 1040 by Phat, posted 10-03-2018 4:04 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1038 of 1135 (840720)
10-03-2018 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1037 by ringo
10-03-2018 12:27 PM


This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Jaywill writes:
He said that they had every right to withhold what they did.

Clearly not. They were rebuked for holding back. There could not have been a "right" to hold back. The KJV says they had the power over the money. Similarly, we have the power to murder each other but not the right to exercise the power.

Bad analogy. "Power" in the KJV in context means they had the authority or the right to dispose of their money as they pleased. And all Jaywill means by "every right" is they had a LEGAL right.

They had a legal right to do whatever they wanted with the land.

Yes they were rebuked for holding back part of it because morally it was wrong in the context of giving all to the disciples as everybody else did. NEVERTHELESS they still had a LEGAL right to do it.

The sin that killed them was lying about it to God for the sake of pride.

Acts 5:4 writes:

... thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

The next verse says that Ananaias, hearing THESE WORDS, fell down dead.

Yes they were wrong to hold back part of the money because of the context in which everyone was giving all, not because it was wrong in principle since they had a legal right to it.

I understand of course that you arrogantly assume you must be righter than the whole history of Christianity because that's the politically correct position these days, but really it's just that the Bible is too subtle for you.

Some relevant scripture:

John 3:11-13:
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

1 Co 2:14:
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1037 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 12:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1039 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 4:04 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15412
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1039 of 1135 (840721)
10-03-2018 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1038 by Faith
10-03-2018 3:39 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:

And all Jaywill means by "every right" is they had a LEGAL right.

They had a legal right to do whatever they wanted with the land.


Of course they had a legal right, both under Roman law and under Jewish law. But the issue has nothing to do with legality. We're talking about a religious community and under their principles, Ananias and Sapphira had no right to steal from the community.

Faith writes:

The sin that killed them was lying about it to God for the sake of pride.


That is not what it says.

Faith writes:

The next verse says that Ananaias, hearing THESE WORDS, fell down dead."


You're leaving out some of "these words". ALL of the words that he heard were, "Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."

"And to keep back part of the price of the land," is there, no matter how hard you try to weasel out of it. It's part of the reason that Ananias and Sapphira died.

Faith writes:

... not because it was wrong in principle since they had a legal right to it.


Again, legality has nothing to do with it. God doesn't strike people down for violating human laws. He strikes people down for violating HIS laws.

Faith writes:

... I understand of course that you arrogantly assume you must be righter than the whole history of Christianity....


Your argument from authority is worthless.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1038 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 3:39 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1041 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 4:11 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11320
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1040 of 1135 (840722)
10-03-2018 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1037 by ringo
10-03-2018 12:27 PM


Re: Jaywill first (Faith's points later,but not her ad hominems against unbelievers
ringp writes:

They were rebuked for holding back.

OK lets go with your theory. You dont believe in God nor in any Holy authority. Thus, you give as much as you can out of an inner sense of obligation...because you believe in socialistic pricipals and humanistic love for your brethren. Do you have to give all that you can? Is that why you owe back taxes? Who tells you to give 100%?

Perhaps in a Utopian world, we would all give 100% for each other...is that what you suggest that our Bible whom we believe in says?

Are you against any right whatsoever to private ownership?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1037 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 12:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1042 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 4:17 PM Phat has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1041 of 1135 (840723)
10-03-2018 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1039 by ringo
10-03-2018 4:04 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
I left out no words at all.

legality has nothing to do with it. God doesn't strike people down for violating human laws. He strikes people down for violating HIS laws.

That is correct, so you have no argument. They were not struck down for violating the human law that gave them the legal right to the land, but for lying to God Himself.

I understand of course that you arrogantly assume you must be righter than the whole history of Christianity....

Your argument from authority is worthless.

Sorry, it's your arrogant belief in your own rightness against two millennia of theologians and believers that is worse than worthless.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1039 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 4:04 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1043 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 4:23 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15412
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1042 of 1135 (840724)
10-03-2018 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1040 by Phat
10-03-2018 4:04 PM


Re: Jaywill first (Faith's points later,but not her ad hominems against unbelievers
Phat writes:

OK lets go with your theory.


It's not "my theory". It's what the bible says.

Phat writes:

Do you have to give all that you can?


No, I don't. I have no Judgement hanging over my head. But I do have to do "enough" to satisfy my conscience just like you have to do enough to be a sheep.

Phat writes:

Perhaps in a Utopian world...


Stop it. I have NEVER suggested a Utopian world and I have told you so many times. To keep repeating that despite being corrected is a deliberate lie.

Phat writes:

... we would all give 100% for each other...is that what you suggest that our Bible whom we believe in says?


That's what it says specifically for the community in Acts 4-5. You might be able to argue that that was an isolated case - but if it wasn't God's principle, why did He kill Ananias and Sapphira for violating it?

Phat writes:

Are you against any right whatsoever to private ownership?


I'm in favour of the workers owning the means of production. As far as I know, even if you declare bankruptcy they won't take away what you need to make a living. The carpenter keeps his tools. Most people can keep a vehicle to get to work. It wouldn't make sense to deprive people of the ability to work. The same principle can be applied to ownership of factories, etc.

I don't think Bill Gates or Elon Musk has a "right" to a big pile of money just because they managed to grab it.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1040 by Phat, posted 10-03-2018 4:04 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1048 by Phat, posted 10-03-2018 5:01 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15412
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1043 of 1135 (840725)
10-03-2018 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1041 by Faith
10-03-2018 4:11 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:

I left out no words at all.


I quoted what you left out - the part where Peter said, "and to keep back part of the price of the land." I can keep quoting it as long as you can keep trying to sweep it under the rug.

Faith writes:

They were not struck down for violating the human law that gave them the legal right to the land, but for lying to God Himself.


See above. They were struck down for lying to god Himself and for keeping back part of the price of the land.

Faith writes:

Sorry, it's your arrogant belief in your own rightness...


There's no arrogance in being able to read. The arrogance is yours, pretending you know better than the Bible.

Faith writes:

...against two millennia of theologians and believers....


An argument from authority is always worthless.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1041 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 4:11 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1044 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 4:27 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1044 of 1135 (840726)
10-03-2018 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1043 by ringo
10-03-2018 4:23 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
No, I spelled out the argument from the scripture itself and said that's what the whole church has accepted. You on the other hand have your own unbelieving self for your authority.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1043 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 4:23 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1045 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 4:34 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15412
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1045 of 1135 (840727)
10-03-2018 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1044 by Faith
10-03-2018 4:27 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:

No, I spelled out the argument from the scripture itself ...


No, you persist in contradicting what the scripture says.

Faith writes:

... and said that's what the whole church has accepted.


I don't believe you. And even if it was true, it isn't a valid argument.

Faith writes:

You on the other hand have your own unbelieving self for your authority.


I have what the Bible says. Apparently I believe the Bible more than you do.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1044 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 4:27 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1046 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 4:48 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1046 of 1135 (840728)
10-03-2018 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1045 by ringo
10-03-2018 4:34 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
If millions read it differently than you do, you're wrong. Sorry.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1045 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 4:34 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1047 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 4:50 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15412
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1047 of 1135 (840729)
10-03-2018 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1046 by Faith
10-03-2018 4:48 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:

If millions read it differently than you do, you're wrong.


Nope. That isn't how reality works. If millions read it wrong, they're wrong.

But again, I don't believe your claim that every Christian from the dawn of time has read it your way. You never do anything to back up that claim.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1046 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 4:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1052 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 5:59 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11320
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1048 of 1135 (840732)
10-03-2018 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1042 by ringo
10-03-2018 4:17 PM


Re: Jaywill first (Faith's points later,but not her ad hominems against unbelievers
I don't think Bill Gates or Elon Musk has a "right" to a big pile of money just because they managed to grab it.
Don't forget the richest man of them all--Jeff Bezos of Amazon...now worth 150 billion dollars. And Amazon just announced they will start paying all of their workers a minimum of $15.00 an hour! Bravo for that! Other corporations exploit the poorer people and hire them on and get rid of the ones making over $12.00 an hour.

But back to giving it all. I have a clear conscience that I give what I can. Yes, I can always do more. But im 59 and need to retire. If I give 100% of what I earned, I would have absolutely nothing for retirement in 8 years. Can I count on social security in conservative populist America? I don't think so...And I can't count on the church to do any more than giving me Raman noodles and cans of food from a food bank. I hope to keep my house because I would not do well at being homeless.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1042 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 4:17 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1049 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 5:05 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15412
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1049 of 1135 (840734)
10-03-2018 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1048 by Phat
10-03-2018 5:01 PM


Re: Jaywill first (Faith's points later,but not her ad hominems against unbelievers
Phat writes:

And I can't count on the church to do any more than giving me Raman noodles and cans of food from a food bank.


So why is that church so much better than the one that does provide for the parishioners' needs?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1048 by Phat, posted 10-03-2018 5:01 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1050 by Phat, posted 10-03-2018 5:07 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11320
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1050 of 1135 (840735)
10-03-2018 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1049 by ringo
10-03-2018 5:05 PM


Re: Jaywill first (Faith's points later,but not her ad hominems against unbelievers
all of the generous churches will give food to whoever needs it...my point is that i cant retire on just promises of food

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1049 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 5:05 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1051 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 5:25 PM Phat has responded

  
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