Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 89 (8876 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-10-2018 8:32 AM
210 online now:
JonF, PaulK, Percy (Admin), Tangle (4 members, 206 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Bill Holbert
Post Volume:
Total: 843,741 Year: 18,564/29,783 Month: 509/2,043 Week: 61/386 Day: 11/50 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
6970
71
7273
...
80Next
Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
ringo
Member
Posts: 15737
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1051 of 1198 (840736)
10-03-2018 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1050 by Phat
10-03-2018 5:07 PM


Re: Jaywill first (Faith's points later,but not her ad hominems against unbelievers
Phat writes:

...my point is that i cant retire on just promises of food

quote:
Acts 4:34-35 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

So why is your system better than theirs?


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1050 by Phat, posted 10-03-2018 5:07 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1056 by Phat, posted 10-04-2018 2:45 AM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1052 of 1198 (840741)
10-03-2018 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1047 by ringo
10-03-2018 4:50 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
You're an upstart arrogant modern unbeliever against some huge number of believers over the millennia, who cares how many since there are a lot more than just you and those who agree with you.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1047 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 4:50 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1053 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 6:04 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15737
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1053 of 1198 (840742)
10-03-2018 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1052 by Faith
10-03-2018 5:59 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:

You're an upstart arrogant modern unbeliever against some huge number of believers over the millennia, who cares how many since there are a lot more than just you and those who agree with you.


It isn't just me. It's pretty much everybody in this thread except you. It's everybody who can read. It's everybody who doesn't have an axe to grind.

If you had an argument, you could present it instead of falling back on fallacy.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1052 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 5:59 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1054 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 6:18 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1054 of 1198 (840744)
10-03-2018 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1053 by ringo
10-03-2018 6:04 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
You are lying. I've made the argument many times over.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1053 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 6:04 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1055 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 6:25 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15737
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1055 of 1198 (840745)
10-03-2018 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1054 by Faith
10-03-2018 6:18 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:

I've made the argument many times over.


Every "argument" you've made has been soundly refuted. Leaving out things like, "and to keep back part of the price of the land," is not a valid argument. Legality is not a valid argument. Popularity is not a valid argument.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1054 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 6:18 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1057 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 3:13 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11563
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1056 of 1198 (840760)
10-04-2018 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1051 by ringo
10-03-2018 5:25 PM


Re: Jaywill first (Faith's points later,but not her ad hominems against unbelievers
ringo writes:

So why is your system better than theirs?

Because we no longer have Apostles...people we can trust---to hand it over to. There is no comparable system today that is anywhere near as integral as the one described in Acts.

I can accept your argument that we are charged to give 100% in life. I can even agree with your argument that the specific group of believers mentioned in the Book Of Acts did, in fact, have a group consensus on giving 100%. What I am telling you and have told you before is that there is no group with trusted leaders with which I feel comfortable being in that same type of commitment with.

On an individual level, I cannot argue with you. The lack of a modern group of people like the Believers in Acts makes the case for what Faith is frustratingly trying to explain.

Finally, there is no comparable church that I know of today.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1051 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 5:25 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1058 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 3:22 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1061 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 11:38 AM Phat has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1057 of 1198 (840762)
10-04-2018 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1055 by ringo
10-03-2018 6:25 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Nothing was left out. Ananias died on hearing the specific words about lying to the Holy Spirit. THAT'S WHAT THE TEXT SAYS.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1055 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 6:25 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1062 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 11:41 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 1058 of 1198 (840763)
10-04-2018 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1056 by Phat
10-04-2018 2:45 AM


Re: Jaywill first (Faith's points later,but not her ad hominems against unbelievers
There is other scripture that says we must work to take care of ourselves and our families, so it is simply not possible that we are charged with giving 100%. Ringo is as usual defending his own ridiculous misreading of the Bible.

The best model I've heard of was John Wesley's policy of giving away whatever was in excess of what he needed to live on. He calculated his needs, quite conservatively I'm sure, and gave away anything he received that was more than that.

People who have been asked to give all were especially chosen for some particular mission, such as a Hudson Taylor who became a missionary to China. During the years that led up to that he helped poor people in his area. In one case he had a coin left for his own meal and felt the Holy Spirit telling him to give it to the poor family instead. He did and it became a lesson to him in how the Lord provides for those who trust Him. But we are not all called to that degree of sellf-sacrifice. You have to be dedicated way beyond the norm. Taylor spent hours on his knees in prayer, and then spent the rest of his life in China.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1056 by Phat, posted 10-04-2018 2:45 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1059 of 1198 (840765)
10-04-2018 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1027 by Tangle
10-03-2018 2:55 AM


Re: Was there a squashed attempt at a "socialistic" Christian government pre 50/70 A.D.?
Which believers, the ones you agree with?

There are lots of believers I don't agree with on some things but are nevertheless believers and would agree with me about this scripture..


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1027 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2018 2:55 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1060 of 1198 (840766)
10-04-2018 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1034 by Tangle
10-03-2018 10:31 AM


Re: Was there a squashed attempt at a "socialistic" Christian government pre 50/70 A.D.?
Faith writes:
A genuine believer is someone who is born again and lives for Christ.

So that would be anybody that believes what you believe?

It would be anybody who puts all trust in Christ for salvation which can vary from my own specific beliefs.

There is no doubt what Pascal meant and it is not what you interpreted it to mean. He thinks it very wise of God to inspire the Bible in such a way as to enlighten believers but mislead unbelievers.

Yes that's what he means. But the conclusion from that is that god can only communicate with those that already believe in him. What use is that?

If we don't believe we do not have the spiritual means for communicating with God. There are some basics, like you desire to know God, like you respect God's offer of salvation, like you are willing to repent and do things God's way. Those who have none of that should also have no ability to understand the Bible correctly.

His stated intention was to save the world, not just a lucky few.

His stated intention was that He wanted everyone to repent and believe but we know there are lots of people who won't do that. You for instance.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1034 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2018 10:31 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15737
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1061 of 1198 (840781)
10-04-2018 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1056 by Phat
10-04-2018 2:45 AM


Re: Jaywill first (Faith's points later,but not her ad hominems against unbelievers
Phat writes:

Because we no longer have Apostles...people we can trust---to hand it over to.


They were handing their possessions over to God. Don't you trust God? You saw what happened to Ananias and Sapphira when they were untrustworthy. What do you think would happen to the trustees if they were untrustworthy?

Phat writes:

There is no comparable system today that is anywhere near as integral as the one described in Acts.


The trustworthiness of the system has nothing to do with whether or not you should obey God.

Phat writes:

What I am telling you and have told you before is that there is no group with trusted leaders with which I feel comfortable being in that same type of commitment with.


And I'm telling you that that copout doesn't fly.

Phat writes:

The lack of a modern group of people like the Believers in Acts makes the case for what Faith is frustratingly trying to explain.


No it doesn't. It's an excuse to hold back. And holding back makes you a goat.

And Faith is not trying to "explain" anything. She's denying what the Bible says. There's no "explanation" that excuses that.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1056 by Phat, posted 10-04-2018 2:45 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1066 by Phat, posted 10-04-2018 12:14 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15737
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1062 of 1198 (840782)
10-04-2018 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1057 by Faith
10-04-2018 3:13 AM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:

Nothing was left out. Ananias died on hearing the specific words about lying to the Holy Spirit.


You're leaving it out again.
quote:
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?

You're leaving out, "and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself." That's what the text says. Those are the specific words that Ananias heard. That's what you're leaving out.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1057 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 3:13 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1063 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 11:47 AM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1063 of 1198 (840785)
10-04-2018 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1062 by ringo
10-04-2018 11:41 AM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Act 5:4-5 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

As I said, he heard the words about lying to God and died. No mention of holding back money as the cause of his death. It's about lying to God, period.

Yes, AGAIN, they were morally wrong to hold back part of the money but they were legally in the right to do so as the statement about it beig in their control shows. God punished them for lying to Him about it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1062 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 11:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1064 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 11:59 AM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15737
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1064 of 1198 (840788)
10-04-2018 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1063 by Faith
10-04-2018 11:47 AM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:

As I said, he heard the words about lying to God and died.


As I said, he heard the words about lying to God and keeping back part of the price of the land and he died. You're leaving out verse 3.

Faith writes:

No mention of holding back money as the cause of his death.


It was definitely mentioned, right there in the same speech.

Faith writes:

It's about lying to God, period.


It's about lying to God and keeping back part of the price of the land. You don't get to write periods into the Bible.

Faith writes:

Yes, AGAIN, they were morally wrong to hold back part of the money but they were legally in the right to do so as the statement about it beig in their control shows.


AGAIN, the legality is irrelevant. It was the moral wrong that they were punished for.

Faith writes:

God punished them for lying to Him about it.


God punished them for lying to Him and keeping back part of the price of the land, as the text plainly says.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1063 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 11:47 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1065 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 12:12 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1065 of 1198 (840793)
10-04-2018 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1064 by ringo
10-04-2018 11:59 AM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Well, you aren't going to give an inch and neither am I. I represent the history of Christian thought on this one though and you represent nothing but your own misreading of the text.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1064 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 11:59 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1067 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 12:16 PM Faith has responded

    
RewPrev1
...
6970
71
7273
...
80Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018