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Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
Phat
Member
Posts: 11569
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1081 of 1198 (840831)
10-04-2018 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1080 by ringo
10-04-2018 3:34 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
All I am saying is that communal ownership is impractical in today's world for someone living in the United States...unless they and a bunch of "true believers" want to go off and start a commune similar to what Truthlover did.

The basic principle is sound--I have no argument with it nor am I weaseling out of anything. As I have said before, I could always give more and do more...but I am not naive enough to sell everything I have and skip through skid row handing out stuff. I would end up living right there with them...which may be what you see yourself doing.

For an atheist, you may make it to Heaven quicker than either Faith or myself....but I think you simply take our Biblical Principles and turn them around on us to win an argument that you yourself only idealistically comprehend....


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1080 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 3:34 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1082 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 3:55 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 1082 of 1198 (840837)
10-04-2018 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1081 by Phat
10-04-2018 3:40 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:

....but I think you simply take our Biblical Principles and turn them around on us....


As I have said, I'm frustrated by the contempt that you have for your own Biblical Principles. Faith openly denies what the Bible says. I'm just waiting for the cock to crow three times.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1081 by Phat, posted 10-04-2018 3:40 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1084 by Phat, posted 10-07-2018 1:37 PM ringo has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1287
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 1083 of 1198 (840859)
10-04-2018 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1036 by jaywill
10-03-2018 12:18 PM


Re: Jaywill first (Faith's points later,but not her ad hominems against unbelievers
I aasked this:

quote:

Just prior to this incident, it says ALL gave everything. Unmistakable words in the text. Do you, Jaywill, disagree with the literal interpretation of the chapter 4 text which says that ALL GAVE EVERYTHING?

Jaywill responded:

quote:

No. I do not disagree with the general information.
To think there were NO exceptions may be unrealistic.
Ananias and his wife were exceptions.

The "all" already has a qualifier.


So, there are 2 possibilities:

They were THE exceptions or part of many exceptions?

I asked:

quote:

Now, some logic.
I don't know if you will agree with my logic, but doesn't is seem LOGICAL to assume that there would have been lots, of the thousands of believers, who would have kept their property if it was voluntary?

Jaywill responded:

quote:

Logically, I think we could compare it to the Israelites offering freely theur ornamants for the building of the tabernacle. Eventually they had so much that they needed no more.

I do not mean an exact parallel. I mean the over all general practice was a communal trust that all things could be combined into a common pool.

Peter's word indicates that some had freedom to keep a portion or perhaps all as their own if they did not have the faith to participate. Isn't that the tone of his rebuke of the couple?

The numbers of such similar cases can only be speculated upon.

My point really was that we should not understand that a "Thou Shalt Be Communal" like COMMANDMENT was issued. This was a spontaneous outpouring of good will and empathy.


So, it was not only a voluntary participation(in all possessions being made part of a collective community) and based on no rules set by any apostle(s)?

When you ask me if "some had freedom to keep a portion or perhaps all as their own if they did not have the faith to participate" because that was "the tone of his (Peter's) rebuke of the couple", then I have to respond with a _no_. No.

(Granted, my answer depends on what you mean by "some". There was some mark of a community member I suppose. Do you care to clarify? I am assuming you are referring to the "Christian" community of the day, whatever that meant, exactly.

I will tell you what I think about Peter's tone,when he says, "Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?"

But NOT NOW. Later in this response.

I said:

quote:

Taxes aren't voluntary today, for a reason.

Jaywill responded:

quote:

You are going into an area beyond my interest.
This account was concerning the CHURCH - the called out community. She is in the world but not OF the world.

Superimposing all this on wordly government practices delves into practices which do not even require God or God's salvation.

Worldly government may IMITATE things read in the Bible.
This is somewhat like a dog walking on its hind legs "like" a man.

It is not the same thing for it does not require the grace of Christ within.


The Mormons know who pays their tithes, and they aren't part of the United States government. Mitt Romney was a member in good standing, so the media assumed he paid his tithes. There can be something of a religious "government" within a government.

Just like there was Zionist MOVEMENT while there was no Israel. But there were Zionist Jews still living in Ottoman Palestine (and the later British Palestine).

And there could have been an early Christian movement that desired some sort of sovereign temporal power.

Was the (Biblical period) nation Israel "worldly"?

Just what is "sacred" or "profane" when we are talking about the period when the very Apostles lived? Especially, when they are part of a movement (whatever exactly its goals were)?

I said:

quote:

People lie on their taxes, but it is the act of not paying them that is the issue.

Jaywill said:

quote:

The rebuke from the Apostle Peter to the couple, however, was about their under appreciating the knowledge of the Holy Spirit. Outwardly, they wanted to look good too. Peter showed them and all else that in the church there should not be play acting to look good. All was based on inward reality.

This is totally different from the IRS demanding that a citizen fork over the revenue being withheld against proportions demanded by law.

You can see the difference, can't you?

Peter didn't say "Ananias and Saphira, You OWE us, the church in Jerusalem such and such number of dollars!"


Back to the "tone" of Peter, which you brought up earlier.

quote:

Acts 5:4

Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.


It sounds like the tone of a judge telling somebody that "It is too late to make excuses"

"You knew what you were doing"

"Nobody made you do it"

"Nothing you say or do now makes a difference"

It sounds like the voice of somebody with the power of a governmental authority to me.

(Naturally, people will say, "Oh no, it wasn't a government, it was God who gave him the power")

You responded:

quote:

He said that they had every right to withhold what they did. They should not PRETEND that they were doing otherwise for the sake of looking good to everyone.

What they were BEFORE GOD was what was important.
God the Holy Spirit knows all, sees all.

The local church was not being run by mere men.
It was being overseen by men in the Holy Spirit who cannot be deceived.


Where do you get this idea that "He said that they had every right to withhold what they did" from?

From this? (Acts 5:4 again)

quote:

Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?

He said that they knew what they were doing:

AT THE TIME THEY DID WHAT THEY DID

and

NOW IT IS TOO LATE.

(The present situation, to Peter and the guilty couple(in Acts 5:3-10), was ex post facto relative to the time of the holy crime)

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1036 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2018 12:18 PM jaywill has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11569
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1084 of 1198 (841042)
10-07-2018 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1082 by ringo
10-04-2018 3:55 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
LNA, to jaywill writes:

Just prior to this incident, it says ALL gave everything. Unmistakable words in the text. Do you, Jaywill, disagree with the literal interpretation of the chapter 4 text which says that ALL GAVE EVERYTHING?

ALL meaning the believers. Ananias and Saphira had the right to opt out at any time with the penalty of not remaining in the club. It would make no sense for GOD or any other authority to punish them for that. What does make sense is being punished for lying and trying to stay in the club...having one's cake and eating it too.
You believe that the message teaches the necessity of everyone giving 100% because you like the idea of a message (socialism) without the need of a messenger(Jesus or religion) and would argue that everyone needs to belong to this club as a gesture of good intentions for fellow humanity. I am arguing that anyone should have the right to opt out of any club---be it "believers" or be it "socialists" or be it "secular humanists" at any time. The lie is in claiming to belong in the club without giving 100%.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1082 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 3:55 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1085 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 2:08 PM Phat has responded
 Message 1091 by ringo, posted 10-07-2018 3:06 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1085 of 1198 (841049)
10-07-2018 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1084 by Phat
10-07-2018 1:37 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
I don't know where you got this idea that Ananias and Sapphira would have been out of the "club" had they given only part of their money but I don't see any reason to think that. The passage merely says they had control over what they gave so they could have given part and the worst would have been that they'd have had to feel stingy in the context of the more generous givers, which is why they lied. But they didn't have to give it all and they didn't have to lie, just put up with a bruise to their ego.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1084 by Phat, posted 10-07-2018 1:37 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1086 by Phat, posted 10-07-2018 2:15 PM Faith has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11569
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1086 of 1198 (841051)
10-07-2018 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1085 by Faith
10-07-2018 2:08 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:

I don't know where you got this idea that Ananias and Sapphira would have been out of the "club" had they given only part of their money but I don't see any reason to think that.

I take it by inference from the scripture. There was a definite group of people known as "the believers".
Acts 4:32 writes:

All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.

Thus to be a "believer" meant to give up private ownership. I would argue that anyone had a right to hold on to whatever they wanted but that in so doing they would not be part of the group since scripture makes clear the behavior of the group. The sin was in trying to hold on and lying about it in order to remain in the group.

I feel that many try and interpret this in light of a modern context of believers who are not expected to give all that they own to the cause. Ringo would argue otherwise, but he loves the idea of socialism anyway.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1085 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 2:08 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1087 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 2:23 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1087 of 1198 (841056)
10-07-2018 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1086 by Phat
10-07-2018 2:15 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
They would not have been any less believers if they'd just not lied about wanting to give less than the whole price of their property. As it is we can now wonder if they were really believers at all.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1086 by Phat, posted 10-07-2018 2:15 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1088 by ringo, posted 10-07-2018 2:34 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1088 of 1198 (841060)
10-07-2018 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1087 by Faith
10-07-2018 2:23 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:

As it is we can now wonder if they were really believers at all.


Careful, you may have an inkling of understanding there. By their fruits ye shall know them. Maybe thieves and liars aren't really believers at all. Maybe hateful, screaming harpies aren't really believers either.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1087 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 2:23 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1089 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 2:41 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1089 of 1198 (841061)
10-07-2018 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1088 by ringo
10-07-2018 2:34 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Well, at least you couldn't be mistaken for a believer.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1088 by ringo, posted 10-07-2018 2:34 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1090 by Phat, posted 10-07-2018 2:47 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1092 by ringo, posted 10-07-2018 3:09 PM Faith has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11569
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1090 of 1198 (841064)
10-07-2018 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1089 by Faith
10-07-2018 2:41 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
He claims that he believes in "the message"...but sees no way to "know" Jesus or whether that is even important. In my defense and as a response to ringo, I will say that I don't trust people enough to give all that I have to any church or community. Christianity, as mentioned in Acts, was for the poor. They could give up all that they had without losing any material of value. Were I to give up the modest possessions which I now have, I doubt if I would have any guarantee of gaining anything of greater value by communing with society...or any current church, for that matter. ringo argues that if I am to call myself a believer I should trust the message. My response is that perhaps I am not a believer in the sense of how Acts defines a believer.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1089 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 2:41 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1093 by ringo, posted 10-07-2018 3:13 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1091 of 1198 (841069)
10-07-2018 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1084 by Phat
10-07-2018 1:37 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:

Ananias and Saphira had the right to opt out at any time with the penalty of not remaining in the club.


Just to be clear, it doesn't say that. It may be true but it doesn't say that. Peter might have been wearing argyle socks too but it doesn't say that either, so it doesn't seem like a good thing to hang your point on.

Phat writes:

It would make no sense for GOD or any other authority to punish them for that.


It would make no sense for God to have us kill His Son in order to be forgiven for lusting after our neighbour's ox, either. A lot of your theology doesn't make sense. On more thing needn't be a deal-breaker.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1084 by Phat, posted 10-07-2018 1:37 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 1092 of 1198 (841070)
10-07-2018 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1089 by Faith
10-07-2018 2:41 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:

Well, at least you couldn't be mistaken for a believer.


Not even if I put a brick on my Shift key?

Edited by ringo, : Fixed quote.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1089 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 2:41 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1094 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 3:16 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1093 of 1198 (841072)
10-07-2018 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1090 by Phat
10-07-2018 2:47 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:

In my defense and as a response to ringo, I will say that I don't trust people enough to give all that I have to any church or community.


That's what the rich man said to Jesus.

But it isn't about trusting people. In your case, it should be about trusting God.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1090 by Phat, posted 10-07-2018 2:47 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1096 by Phat, posted 10-08-2018 3:10 AM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1094 of 1198 (841074)
10-07-2018 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1092 by ringo
10-07-2018 3:09 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
I don't know who you are quoting, but it isn't me.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1092 by ringo, posted 10-07-2018 3:09 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1095 by ringo, posted 10-07-2018 3:23 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1095 of 1198 (841075)
10-07-2018 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1094 by Faith
10-07-2018 3:16 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:

I don't know who you are quoting, but it isn't me.


Fixed.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1094 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 3:16 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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