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Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
Phat
Member
Posts: 11300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1096 of 1129 (841106)
10-08-2018 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1093 by ringo
10-07-2018 3:13 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
You can't honestly use that argument since you, in fact, do not believe God exists. If you are true to your own beliefs, you couldn't very well charge me with trusting One whom you have no evidence exists.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1093 by ringo, posted 10-07-2018 3:13 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1097 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 11:44 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15398
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1097 of 1129 (841124)
10-08-2018 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1096 by Phat
10-08-2018 3:10 AM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:

You can't honestly use that argument since you, in fact, do not believe God exists.


My belief or lack of belief has nothing to do with the consistency of your beliefs. You yourself can point out plot holes in The Lord of the Rings whether you believe the story is real or not.

If you are true to your own beliefs, you couldn't very well charge me with trusting One whom you have no evidence exists.

I'm charging you with not trusting the One you claim to commune with. Your claims are inconsistent.

You're like the little old lady and the flood. She claimed to trust God to take care of her - but when He sent help in the form of a policeman, a boat and a helicopter, she rejected His help. Similarly, you claim to trust God but when He asks you to let go of your house and get into the boat, you reject Him.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1096 by Phat, posted 10-08-2018 3:10 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1098 by Phat, posted 10-08-2018 1:10 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1098 of 1129 (841144)
10-08-2018 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1097 by ringo
10-08-2018 11:44 AM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
OK lets run with the home analogy. If we literally believe that we modern "believers" are charged to do exactly as the believers in Acts, you have a point. My "copout" as you will label it is to assert that we have nothing in common with the lifestyle, situation, and experience of that group and are not automatically charged to do what the words say.
  • Who is charging me?
  • What makes you so sure that this message is applicable to us today? You have every right to believe it if you choose, but why recruit me?

    What I am saying is that you as a critic have no credentials nor authority to charge me with following words that have meaning to you in the context of humanism and socialist practice while still saying that you see no evidence that the Jesus in the story was once alive, died, and was raised again.

    You simply can't use Biblical logic to justify modern humanist socialist principles.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1097 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 11:44 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1099 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 1:23 PM Phat has responded

      
  • ringo
    Member
    Posts: 15398
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 1099 of 1129 (841145)
    10-08-2018 1:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 1098 by Phat
    10-08-2018 1:10 PM


    Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
    Phat writes:

    My "copout" as you will label it is to assert that we have nothing in common with the lifestyle, situation, and experience of that group and are not automatically charged to do what the words say.


    The point is that maybe your lifestyle should be more like theirs.

    Phat writes:

    Who is charging me?


    If Jesus is alive and communing with you, wouldn't that be Him?

    Phat writes:

    What makes you so sure that this message is applicable to us today?


    Because it's a good message, based on the reality of our social nature instead of on the greed that Jesus preached against.

    Phat writes:

    You have every right to believe it if you choose, but why recruit me?


    If you're going to flood every thread with, "I believe... I believe... I believe..." I'm going to question the validity of your belief. If you don't start the conversation, you won't see me starting it. I don't think I've ever started a thread to "recruit" you. (For that matter, I don't know if I've ever started a thread at all.)

    Phat writes:

    What I am saying is that you as a critic have no credentials nor authority to charge me with following words that have meaning to you in the context of humanism and socialist practice while still saying that you see no evidence that the Jesus in the story was once alive, died, and was raised again.


    That's the problem right there. Credentials and authority are worthless here. Ask an airline pilot for credentials. I don't need any credentials to question your logic. I don't need to believe in Santa Claus to question the logic of belief in Santa Claus.

    Phat writes:

    You simply can't use Biblical logic to justify modern humanist socialist principles.


    I certainly can, I have and I will continue to do so. It's one case where the Bible happens to be right.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1098 by Phat, posted 10-08-2018 1:10 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1100 by Phat, posted 10-08-2018 1:35 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11300
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1100 of 1129 (841147)
    10-08-2018 1:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 1099 by ringo
    10-08-2018 1:23 PM


    Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
    ringo writes:

    ...I have and I will continue to do so.

    Well then let me spell it out. There is no group I can trust as much as the group in Acts purportedly trusted one another. I won't simply give everything up based on some lofty principle of "how we should live"...

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1099 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 1:23 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1101 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 1:41 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 15398
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 1101 of 1129 (841149)
    10-08-2018 1:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 1100 by Phat
    10-08-2018 1:35 PM


    Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
    Phat writes:

    There is no group I can trust as much as the group in Acts purportedly trusted one another.


    You keep saying that. I'm going to give you the same answer as always: If you don't do what Jesus told you to do, it's Jesus that you don't trust.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1100 by Phat, posted 10-08-2018 1:35 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1102 by Phat, posted 10-09-2018 2:56 AM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11300
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1102 of 1129 (841199)
    10-09-2018 2:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 1101 by ringo
    10-08-2018 1:41 PM


    Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
    well if so thats between Him and I

    You always maintained that we have to build our own ark. By the same token, we have to responsibly save for our own retirement. Jesus won't magically drop money or a free house in your lap nor will the socialists provide you with any more than a cot in a shelter with perhaps one meal.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1101 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 1:41 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1103 by ringo, posted 10-09-2018 11:48 AM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 15398
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 1103 of 1129 (841210)
    10-09-2018 11:48 AM
    Reply to: Message 1102 by Phat
    10-09-2018 2:56 AM


    Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
    Phat writes:

    You always maintained that we have to build our own ark. By the same token, we have to responsibly save for our own retirement.


    No, those are separate concepts. We have to build our own ark to save ourselves from God. We do NOT have to save a big pile of money in defiance of Jesus' instructions.

    Phat writes:

    Jesus won't magically drop money or a free house in your lap...


    Wrong. He fed people in Judea all the time. (And by the way, He made wine too. He wasn't as finicky as you about how people used His "spare change".)

    Phat writes:

    ... nor will the socialists provide you with any more than a cot in a shelter with perhaps one meal.


    Wrong. You should be banned from using the word "socialist" until you get the first inkling of a clue about what it means. Even your own right-wing government does more than that.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1102 by Phat, posted 10-09-2018 2:56 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1104 by Phat, posted 10-10-2018 4:10 AM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11300
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1104 of 1129 (841253)
    10-10-2018 4:10 AM
    Reply to: Message 1103 by ringo
    10-09-2018 11:48 AM


    Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
    ringo writes:

    We have to build our own ark to save ourselves from God. We do NOT have to save a big pile of money in defiance of Jesus' instructions.

    I don't believe that Jesus intended everybody to leave their families and homes and wander across the land as He and His Disciples did. You are free to interpret it differently, but today's modern context is much different than back then. People can do that with the excuse that they are doing Gods Will but many simply escape their own lack of discipline at saving money. We don't need a "Big Pile"...we simply need enough to own or rent a home and have a place to hang one's hat. Common sense tells me this is rational.
    He (Jesus) wasn't as finicky as you about how people used His "spare change"
    Hey I'm all for giving spare change away. It makes sense to start each day with ten dollars and buy your food and necessities for that day...usually, most of us have a couple bucks left over...which is basicaly giving 20% to the needy. I'm sure you are quite diligent about giving. So much so that I doubt you worry enough about yourself. Pretty good for a guy who doesn't even believe in Jesus.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1103 by ringo, posted 10-09-2018 11:48 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1105 by ringo, posted 10-10-2018 12:36 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 15398
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 1105 of 1129 (841265)
    10-10-2018 12:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 1104 by Phat
    10-10-2018 4:10 AM


    Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
    Phat writes:

    I don't believe that Jesus intended everybody to leave their families and homes and wander across the land as He and His Disciples did.


    I know. You throw out the message and keep the envellope.

    Phat writes:

    You are free to interpret it differently...


    Well, the early church (see Ananias and Sapphira) apparently interpreted it the way I do instead of in the self-serving way that you do.

    Phat writes:

    ...but today's modern context is much different than back then.


    Then you should be working to change the context - i.e. you should be promoting socialism instead of spouting right-wing lies about it.

    Phat writes:

    People can do that with the excuse that they are doing Gods Will but many simply escape their own lack of discipline at saving money.


    People can use any excuse for defying Jesus' message.

    Phat writes:

    Pretty good for a guy who doesn't even believe in Jesus.


    In practical terms, I believe in Jesus more than you do. I believe in the message.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1104 by Phat, posted 10-10-2018 4:10 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1106 by Phat, posted 10-11-2018 12:31 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11300
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1106 of 1129 (841323)
    10-11-2018 12:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 1105 by ringo
    10-10-2018 12:36 PM


    Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
    ringo writes:

    I know. You throw out the message and keep the envelope.

    And you embrace the message even though you don't believe in any divine messenger because you want to promote socialism....and then try and preach at us that it(modern socialism) is essentially what Jesus would have wanted us to do!
    People can use any excuse for defying Jesus' message.
    More correctly you mean that people can use any excuse for rejecting modern socialism.
    In practical terms, I believe in Jesus more than you do. I believe in the message.
    You believe in modern socialism. You don't believe that Jesus even existed except as a character in a book.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1105 by ringo, posted 10-10-2018 12:36 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1107 by ringo, posted 10-11-2018 12:40 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 1108 by Tangle, posted 10-11-2018 12:50 PM Phat has responded
     Message 1109 by Diomedes, posted 10-11-2018 2:47 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 15398
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 1107 of 1129 (841325)
    10-11-2018 12:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 1106 by Phat
    10-11-2018 12:31 PM


    Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
    Phat writes:

    And you embrace the message even though you don't believe in any divine messenger...


    You say that as if it was a bad thing.

    Yes, I have said explicitly that the envellope is not important.

    Phat writes:

    ... because you want to promote socialism....


    No, I embrace socialism because socialism is the responsible way for a social species to approach social issues. The fact that Jesus embraced socialism is coincidental. If he had been wrong about that, I would point out where He was wrong.

    Phat writes:

    ringo writes:

    People can use any excuse for defying Jesus' message.


    More correctly you mean that people can use any excuse for rejecting modern socialism.

    No, what I said was correct. I told you you should stop using the word "socialism" until you understand what it means. It isn't just a swear-word for right-wing fanatics.

    Phat writes:

    You don't believe that Jesus even existed except as a character in a book.


    In practical terms, I believe in Jesus more than you do. I believe in the message.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1106 by Phat, posted 10-11-2018 12:31 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 6178
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 2.0


    Message 1108 of 1129 (841327)
    10-11-2018 12:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 1106 by Phat
    10-11-2018 12:31 PM


    Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
    What's wrong with modern socialism Phat? I always thought Jesus would approve of it? In the same way that I imagine Jesus would disapprove of gun totin' capitalists.

    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1106 by Phat, posted 10-11-2018 12:31 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1112 by Phat, posted 10-11-2018 3:24 PM Tangle has not yet responded

      
    Diomedes
    Member
    Posts: 725
    From: Central Florida, USA
    Joined: 09-13-2013
    Member Rating: 3.0


    (1)
    Message 1109 of 1129 (841346)
    10-11-2018 2:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 1106 by Phat
    10-11-2018 12:31 PM


    Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
    You believe in modern socialism.

    quote:
    What is Modern Socialism?

    Modern socialism, or social democracy, is therefore a movement to make conditions under capitalism better through government, and not actually make any move toward socialism.


    What you may find interesting Phat is that the concept of modern socialism was actually enacted by individuals like FDR to function as a counter to extreme forms of Marxism or Communism. This notion was also replicated in various portions of Europe as well.

    The underlying premise is that by creating certain safety nets such as social security, medicare, medicaid, etc. it actually reduces the likelihood of more extreme movements manifesting that could usurp the existing free market system.

    Modern socialism and democratic socialism are essentially just advocating those concepts. That certain government programs (schools, police, welfare) are designed to level the playing field among all citizens thereby allowing standard capitalism and free market notions to thrive.

    Another thing to consider: when the country gained its independence from Britain, the Founding Fathers immediately created things like public schools, public libraries and the public post office. Because they understood that in order for the country and its citizens to thrive, certain staple services should be provided by the government.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1106 by Phat, posted 10-11-2018 12:31 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1110 by Phat, posted 10-11-2018 3:09 PM Diomedes has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11300
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1110 of 1129 (841357)
    10-11-2018 3:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 1109 by Diomedes
    10-11-2018 2:47 PM


    Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
    Thanks for the clarification. I'm not against this concept of socialism. What I am against is ringos idea that "giving everything away" is somehow justifiable and encouraged.

    He uses Jesus to hammer the point home to Christians . Methinks that his "message" is not what modern socialism would advocate.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1109 by Diomedes, posted 10-11-2018 2:47 PM Diomedes has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1111 by ringo, posted 10-11-2018 3:20 PM Phat has responded

      
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