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Author Topic:   Can sense organs like the eye really evolve?
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(4)
Message 71 of 242 (636903)
10-12-2011 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Robert Byers
10-11-2011 10:04 PM


Lack of Diversity?
I simply point out that the lack of diversity in eye types is unlikely if evolution was true.
What do you mean "lack of diversity"? There has been an astonishing degree of diversity in eye form, functionality and features both in existing species as well as in the fossil record.
Dragonflies have extremely different eyes than squids which have different eyes than the box jellyfish which have different eyes than flatworms which have different eyes than goats which have different eyes than humans.
And that's to say nothing about eye capacity -
An eagle's eye has very different capacity than a human eye.
A cat can see in the dark.
Then of course there's the issue of number of eyes. Spiders have 8. Tuatara have 3. Humans 2. Box jellyfish have 24.
Then I add all eyes , deeply, are showing a single concept to sight.
"concept of sight"?
Eyes detect light. That's what an eye does. That's not "a concept of sight" it's a definition of "eye".
If you want an "eye" that detects chemicals instead of light, let me direct you to the "eye" which is sticking out of the middle of your face right above your mustache.
If you want an "eye" that detects tastes instead of light, let me direct you to the "eye" which is inside your mouth.
If you want an "eye" that detects sounds instead of light, let me direct you to your headphone holders on either side of your head.
By the way, bats "SEE" using their ears. They can literally fly through the forest using nothing but sound.
So, even in my snarky response to you I still manage to come up with an answer that makes your question seem profoundly foolish.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Robert Byers, posted 10-11-2011 10:04 PM Robert Byers has not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 72 of 242 (636904)
10-12-2011 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Blue Jay
10-11-2011 4:17 PM


compound eye
*The compound eye is, however, thought to be derived from a proliferation of the ocelli, or simple eyes, which are present in both modern arthropods and their closest relatives, the onychophorans. Still, the ocellus first appears in the fossil record as a complete unit, and there are still no really good theories on how these evolved from pigment patches or eyespots, etc.
Don't know if this helps you at all, but recently heard a scientific study of compound eyes that reveal that they don't process information as separate eyes.
In other words, the overdone "fly point of view" where we see hundreds of tiny images all doing the same thing is wrong.
Instead, fly eyes process information like pixels. With each eye providing only a tiny piece of the picture.
Unfortunately, there's no way to know if that is an adaptation of the brain to better process the input as the number of eyes increased or if that was the original function of the original eye, so that more and more eyes made for better and better resolution.

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 Message 68 by Blue Jay, posted 10-11-2011 4:17 PM Blue Jay has not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 83 of 242 (637183)
10-14-2011 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Robert Byers
10-14-2011 1:02 AM


My point is that in the literature eyesight is organized into just a few varieties.
All'mammals" have the same eyes and they would say from a common origin that had the original eyes. not every mammal evolved its own eye type.
So, your argument AGAINST evolution is citing an example of a feature which demonstrates common descent.
LOL. REALLY?
If your claim of a grand Jewish Wizard putting things together out of boxes of parts were true, here's what we'd expect to see:
A) All creatures have the exact same eyes.
or
B) All creatures smaller than a breadbox have one kind of eye be they insect, mammal or reptile. All creatures bigger than a car have a different kind of eye regardless of their classification.
or
C) All eyes function with the exact same ability for all creatures.
NONE of that is true.
In fact, the ONLY way to explain what we see is through common descent.
Why else would a cave crayfish have useless eyes which match the eyes of stream crayfish?
Why would ALL mammals have similarly structured eyes be they nocturnal, subterrainian, aquatic, etc?
You really need to think through your points before you post them.
I'm just about ready to call POE on you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Robert Byers, posted 10-14-2011 1:02 AM Robert Byers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Robert Byers, posted 10-19-2011 3:41 AM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 111 of 242 (637806)
10-18-2011 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Percy
10-17-2011 3:06 PM


The eyes have it
Eyesight is a good example of the power of natural selection. Prior to the development of vision correcting technology, those with poor eyesight were subject to selection pressures for good vision, such as are associated with hunting or detecting threats. With the invention of eyeglasses these types of selection pressures were removed, and genes for poor vision were passed on indiscriminately. As time went by the average quality of human vision has diminished. Indeed, Darwin noted on his voyage through Patagonia that the natives appeared to have significantly better visual acuity than the Europeans from the ship.
While this is undoubtedly true for people with genetically induced severe optical problems, it is worth noting a couple of other factors which come into play.
#1) Nutrition, while Europeans at the time of Darwin had ready access to sufficient calories, they weren't get the same variety of foods and therefore vitamins that native hunter/gatherers got.
#2) Ship nutrition, even worse that just normal agricultural diet problem, professional sailors were often much worse off.
#3) Artificial lighting, recent studies have shown that children exposed to lights at night developed sight problems. The study was focusing on night lights, but obviously candles would do the trick as well. I think the point was the straining to see in the dark was a problem for developing eyes.
#4) Late onset eye problems. Most eye problems are progressive. There is significantly less selective pressure on a 40+ year old male with nearsightedness than there is on a 20 year old male with the same problem. Odds are the 40 year old has already passed on his genes.
Just some stuff to think about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Percy, posted 10-17-2011 3:06 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 113 of 242 (637836)
10-18-2011 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Big_Al35
10-18-2011 6:23 AM


Eugenics
I am willing to accept you wouldn't oppose a voluntary program of eugenics but would you encourage a voluntary program of eugenics?
You have already indicated that bad eyesight is a trait that you would personally like to see decline in future generations.
I'm reminded of a story I saw on TV in which a couple that both had the same genetic disorder had gotten married.
There was a dominant gene mutation which caused both of them to be born without eyeballs. Not just blind, literally no eye balls.
They were each 1 dom/1 rec, and they proceeded to have a number of children. The first two or three were also born without eyeballs. Finally they ended up having a kid with double rec and he could see.
It was "a miracle".
Setting aside the fact that it wasn't "a miracle", these people really had no business cranking out a bunch of kids trying to win the genetic lottery.
We, as a society, need to stop pushing the "having your own child is the absolutely best thing that can happen message" and start pushing the "you can raise a child without passing on your terrible genes" message.
Overpopulation is a problem. Why add to the problem with people who are carrying terrible genes?
I'm not advocating killing or even sterilizing people. I am saying that just like "don't smoke" and "don't litter" campaigns have changed the national trends, we can have a "don't have kids if you have a bad genetic disease" campaign.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Big_Al35, posted 10-18-2011 6:23 AM Big_Al35 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Big_Al35, posted 10-18-2011 10:18 AM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 116 of 242 (637876)
10-18-2011 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Big_Al35
10-18-2011 10:18 AM


Re: Eugenics
Ahhh...here is someone who is willing to "encourage a voluntary eugenics program". I am not saying that this is right or wrong. Eugenics however, has been touted and rejected in previous generations but I can see that its appeal lives on. If allowed to catch hold of the public imagination it would be a force for intelligent design don't you think?
I think we are straying off topic, since the thread is about whether or not eyes could evolve.
If you'd like to start a thread on eugenic and intelligent design, I'd be happy to join you there.
I certainly believe that eugenics would be a creative way to rid us of the people who believe in Intelligent Design.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Big_Al35, posted 10-18-2011 10:18 AM Big_Al35 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Big_Al35, posted 10-18-2011 12:09 PM Nuggin has not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 124 of 242 (638019)
10-19-2011 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Robert Byers
10-19-2011 3:41 AM


No. And please no POE accusation threatening. it affects me not.
Its as one would expect if their was a common design.
The lack of diversity is unwelcome to evolution as eyes should be profoundly different in everybody.
See, this is why we call POE.
When someone posts something this profoundly stupid it feels like they are just lobbing softballs.
"completely alike"? We've already pointed out dozens of different kinds of eyes to you.
Dragonfly eyes are not human eyes are not goat eyes are not jellyfish eyes are not spider eyes are not eagle eyes are not cat eyes are not chamelion eyes.
Sea creatures or insects would be different from large animals or people.
your just plain wrong to say eye sight is vastly diverse.
just read up on it anywhere.
They ARE.
This is the mantis shrimp, one of the most advanced set of eyes in the animal kingdom
This is a whale's eye
Here's one of the 24 eyes that a box jellyfish has
Here's the barreleye fish. It sees through the top of it's head.
And strangest of all, these eyes are made up of crystals!
So, again, unless your complaint is that "all eyes process light", you're smoking crack.
And if your complaint is "all eyes process light" then you're complaining about the DEFINITION of the word "eye".
Edited by Nuggin, : No reason given.
Edited by Nuggin, : No reason given.
Edited by Nuggin, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Robert Byers, posted 10-19-2011 3:41 AM Robert Byers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Robert Byers, posted 10-21-2011 3:05 AM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(1)
Message 129 of 242 (638264)
10-21-2011 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Robert Byers
10-21-2011 3:05 AM


No . Your wrong.
Mammal eyes, for example, are exactly the same .
My wrong what? Oh, did you perhaps mean "you're wrong"? I see that the level of education among the Creationists hasn't changed much.
Can you see in the dark?
Here are some mammal eyes.
Can you tell me the difference between "l" "-" and "o"? Are those all exactly the same symbol?
You need to look up "exactly" in the dictionary.
Edited by Nuggin, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Robert Byers, posted 10-21-2011 3:05 AM Robert Byers has not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(4)
Message 130 of 242 (638265)
10-21-2011 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Robert Byers
10-21-2011 2:57 AM


We are making progress. you are admitting its just minor variations that are separate mammal eyes.
AMEBN.
In fact so minor as to be irrelevant to the glory of the machine of our eyes.
This MORE expected from a common design then fantastic nutation/time evolution affecting eyes.
Eyes are not diverse and where there is diversity in the other creatures I say it shows a greater law of what sight is .
Sight is very limited in options to how it works. In fact only one option. Unlikely if evolution was right.
As i SEE it.
Well, the problem is that how you see it has nothing to do with reality.
Your opinion is based on both a profound lack of education in evolution AND almost not experience with the actual natural world.
According to your claim, a "designer" has developed a number of kinds of eyes each suited for different things. He has then distributed those eyes among the various animals which need them.
Then, why is it, that reptiles and fish that need to see in the dark have very different eyes than a lemur or bat which needs to see in the dark?
Why is it that squid which need to see underwater have very different eyes than whales which need to see underwater.
Why is it that chamelions which need to catch bugs with their tongues have different eyes than frogs which needs to catch bugs with their tongues?
Why is it that hummingbirds which needs to hover and catch insects have extremely different eyes than dragonflies which do the same thing?
The only thing that the eyes you say have a lot in common is that they detect light. That's what makes them "eyes".
If they detected sound, they wouldn't be eyes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Robert Byers, posted 10-21-2011 2:57 AM Robert Byers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Robert Byers, posted 10-27-2011 5:48 AM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 159 of 242 (638707)
10-25-2011 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Big_Al35
10-24-2011 12:18 PM


Re: Eye Evolution
Your eye can also record some details of an instant in time (ie a snapshot) but it does so through a sytem called memory rather than through film or a digital format. A far more eco friendly system don't you think?
If film recorded like memory, no one would have ever used a camera twice.
Memory doesn't record what you see. Memory is the ever changing story you continue to tell yourself about what you brain decided was or was not important enough to notice.
It's not locked down, it's not a recording.
"Eye witness" accounts are among the worst form of evidence available.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Big_Al35, posted 10-24-2011 12:18 PM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(3)
Message 188 of 242 (638974)
10-27-2011 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Robert Byers
10-27-2011 5:48 AM


Your eye pictures make my point. They are the same eye.
You are kidding, right?
Human - one lens, one pupil
Dragonfly - hundreds of lenses lenses, no pupil
Mantis Shrimp - multiple cornea, crystaline cones
In what way are these the "same eye"?
I don't mean a creator made types of eyes.
I mean there is just one equation for sight.
Meaning "an organ which captures light"?
So, your argument for a creator is that there all "eyes" are "organs which capture light".
That's the DEFINITION of the word "eye".
Just like the definition of the word "nose" is an organ which takes in air and samples chemicals to detect "odor".
Just like the definition of the word "ear" is an organ which senses vibrations and translates them into "sounds".
HUMANS have decided that all these things are "eyes".
Would could have just as easily declared that all mammals have "eyes" and that all insects have "spectrae".
Your argument is circularly.
Then I say if evolution was the creator of eyes it would be a fantastic segregation of types so one could hardly recognize oringinal origins.
And I say, you are demonstrating that you have absolutely no education as to what evolution is or how it occurs.
WHY would mammals, which are all extremely closely related, have vastly different organs? Particularly when those organs are extremely important to survival?
Evolution keeps what works and modifies it.
Goats have different pupils than humans do. That's modification. They don't have dragonfly eyes. If they did, THAT would be a problem for evolution.
Creatures in like situations would have like eyes.
Someone has already pointed out to you that that is NOT the case. Hummingbirds and dragonflies inhabit the same area, are the same size, and do similar things. Their eyes are radically different.
Whale sharks and Right Whales inhabit the same area, feed on the same things in the same way. Different eyes.
Naked Moles rats and termites have the same social structure, live the same way and feed on the same thing - radically different eyes.
Your lists miss this point.
Let's compare it to your list....
Oh wait, that's right. You don't have a list. You don't present any evidence.
Someone ban this guy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Robert Byers, posted 10-27-2011 5:48 AM Robert Byers has not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 225 of 242 (639944)
11-05-2011 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Portillo
11-02-2011 5:25 AM


But no visible step by step development of earlier forms.
You've continued to make this claim.
You've had evidence handed to you countless times.
You've then repeated the claim without addressing the evidence.
So, either you are being dishonest, you don't understand the big words, or you just can't handle the reality.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you are just terrifically uneducated.
What SPECIFICALLY are you asking to see?
What, in your mind, would be sufficient evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Portillo, posted 11-02-2011 5:25 AM Portillo has not replied

  
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