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Author Topic:   "If I descended from an ape, how come apes are still here?"
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 1627 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


(1)
Message 241 of 286 (657123)
03-26-2012 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by RAZD
03-25-2012 8:51 PM


What are the differences?
As I said before the only clear differences I can see from the pictures are in the teeth, and it wouldn't surprise me if that was principally a matter of wear on the skull prior to fossilisation. It looks like a lot of the bone surrounding the roots of the teeth has been eroded away making them look much bigger.

According to the paper on D2700 the skull has suffered some damage which may account for some of the differences Al is seeing (Vekua et al., 2002) ...

Vekua et al. writes:

The maxillae are slightly damaged anteriorly, the zygomatic arches are broken, and both mastoid processes are heavily abraded. There is damage also to the orbital walls and to the elements of the interorbital region and the nasal cavity. The condyles are missing from the mandible.


The damage to the maxilla is what I was describing as wear. There is actually a side view in the paper which makes the degree of erosion around the teeth much clearer, you can easily appreciate that a large amount of the tooth roots are exposed (That image can be found here).

To emphasise Coyote's point about multivariate analysis here are some of the measurement's the authors use to compare their new find to previously discovered specimens ...

    * Cranial length
    * Max. cranial breadth
    * Max. biparietal breadth
    * Biauricular Breadth
    * Supraorbital torus thickness
    * Min. frontal breadth
    * Biorbital chord
    * Postorbital constriction index
    * Frontal arc
    * Frontal angle
    * Parietal arc
    * Lambda-asterion arc
    * Biasterionic breadth
    * Occipital arc
    * Occipital angle
    * Occipital scale index
    * Nasion-prosthion length
    * Malar height
    * Nasion angle
    * Bimaxillary chord
    * Subspinale angle
    * Orbit breadth
    * Orbit height
    * Nasal breadth
    * Nasal height

TTFN,

WK

Edited by Wounded King, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by RAZD, posted 03-25-2012 8:51 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 242 of 286 (657200)
03-26-2012 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Coyote
03-25-2012 4:58 PM


Re: Ducking?
Coyote writes:

Are you ignoring me deliberately?

Yes, I am ignoring you deliberately.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Coyote, posted 03-25-2012 4:58 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Tangle, posted 03-26-2012 4:58 PM Big_Al35 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 244 by RAZD, posted 03-26-2012 5:03 PM Big_Al35 has not yet responded
 Message 247 by Coyote, posted 03-26-2012 8:47 PM Big_Al35 has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 243 of 286 (657203)
03-26-2012 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Big_Al35
03-26-2012 4:37 PM


Re: Ducking?
Big Al writes:

Yes, I am ignoring you deliberately.

I suspect that not looking under the bed won't help you with your worry that there might be something under there.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Big_Al35, posted 03-26-2012 4:37 PM Big_Al35 has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18971
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 244 of 286 (657204)
03-26-2012 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Big_Al35
03-26-2012 4:37 PM


Willfully choosing ignorance then?
Hi Big_Al35

Yes, I am ignoring you deliberately.

Curiously, Coyote is probably the best person on this thread to discuss fossils and the comparisons of shared (synapomorphies) and derived (apomorphies) features and how they are used to categorize fossils in a scientific process, rather than just looking at pictures.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Big_Al35, posted 03-26-2012 4:37 PM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Panda, posted 03-26-2012 5:30 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 1245 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(2)
Message 245 of 286 (657208)
03-26-2012 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by RAZD
03-26-2012 5:03 PM


Re: Willfully choosing ignorance then?
RAZD writes:

Coyote is probably the best person on this thread...


Since Big_Al32 is determined to remain completely ignorant, Coyote is actually the worst person in this thread.

It is best for Big_Al32 if he avoids talking to anyone who is fully educated in the sphere of knowledge that Big_Al32 wants to remain wrong about.

We all have a brain, but some creationists are convinced that it is best used as a paperweight.


Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by RAZD, posted 03-26-2012 5:03 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Perdition, posted 03-26-2012 5:36 PM Panda has acknowledged this reply

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 246 of 286 (657210)
03-26-2012 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Panda
03-26-2012 5:30 PM


Re: Willfully choosing ignorance then?
We all have a brain, but some creationists are convinced that it is best used as a paperweight.

Everyone knows the brain is used for heat regulation, nothing else.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Panda, posted 03-26-2012 5:30 PM Panda has acknowledged this reply

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5989
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.5


(12)
Message 247 of 286 (657242)
03-26-2012 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Big_Al35
03-26-2012 4:37 PM


Re: Ducking?
Coyote writes:

Are you ignoring me deliberately?

Yes, I am ignoring you deliberately.

I have posted politely, presented solid evidence concerning the topic, and have firsthand experience with fossil man and the statistical treatments used to analyze the various skulls, and those are the posts you choose to ignore?

I would be interested in your reasons for ignoring my posts.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Big_Al35, posted 03-26-2012 4:37 PM Big_Al35 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by subbie, posted 03-26-2012 10:12 PM Coyote has acknowledged this reply
 Message 256 by Big_Al35, posted 04-01-2012 3:18 PM Coyote has responded

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 239 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


(2)
Message 248 of 286 (657243)
03-26-2012 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Coyote
03-26-2012 8:47 PM


Re: Ducking?
You've heard the phrase, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing?" Big Al is playing it as safe as possible and avoiding all knowledge.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Coyote, posted 03-26-2012 8:47 PM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 25 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 249 of 286 (657249)
03-27-2012 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by Big_Al35
03-25-2012 3:44 PM


Let's talk about Al
It's not me

Alright, I see that a lot of people have been trying a lot of different tactics.

I'm not going to go back an read all 250 posts to see what's been posted. Clearly you are not convinced.

I'll simply ask you two questions:

#1) What do you feel is the best explanation for the fossils that exist?
#2) What would you expect/need to see to be convinced that fossils represent changes over time from one set of features to a different set of features?

Can you answer these two questions honestly?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Big_Al35, posted 03-25-2012 3:44 PM Big_Al35 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Big_Al35, posted 03-27-2012 4:13 PM Nuggin has responded

    
Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 250 of 286 (657342)
03-27-2012 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Nuggin
03-27-2012 2:31 AM


Re: Let's talk about Al
Nuggin writes:

I'll simply ask you two questions:

#1) What do you feel is the best explanation for the fossils that exist?
#2) What would you expect/need to see to be convinced that fossils represent changes over time from one set of features to a different set of features?

My concern is that you appear to have only one explanation for how these fossils might have come about. Issues such as the effects of weathering, diet change, environmental factors, and medicine seem to be completely ignored. I am not even convinced by your dating arguments. And yes I am being honest!

Edited by Big_Al35, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Nuggin, posted 03-27-2012 2:31 AM Nuggin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by subbie, posted 03-27-2012 4:32 PM Big_Al35 has not yet responded
 Message 252 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-27-2012 4:38 PM Big_Al35 has not yet responded
 Message 253 by Theodoric, posted 03-27-2012 6:28 PM Big_Al35 has not yet responded
 Message 254 by RAZD, posted 03-27-2012 9:13 PM Big_Al35 has not yet responded
 Message 255 by Nuggin, posted 03-27-2012 9:26 PM Big_Al35 has not yet responded
 Message 258 by Taq, posted 04-02-2012 3:02 PM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

    
subbie
Member (Idle past 239 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


(2)
Message 251 of 286 (657350)
03-27-2012 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Big_Al35
03-27-2012 4:13 PM


Re: Let's talk about Al
My concern is that you appear to have only one explanation for how these fossils might have come about. Issues such as the effects of weathering, diet change, environmental factors, and medicine seem to be completely ignored.

Do you have any evidence that actual paleontologists are ignoring these things, or is this just your latest straw to grasp at in an attempt to not face known facts?


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Big_Al35, posted 03-27-2012 4:13 PM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(3)
Message 252 of 286 (657352)
03-27-2012 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Big_Al35
03-27-2012 4:13 PM


Re: Let's talk about Al
Issues such as the effects of weathering, diet change, environmental factors, and medicine seem to be completely ignored.

Says the guy who is deliberately ignoring the archeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Big_Al35, posted 03-27-2012 4:13 PM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(3)
Message 253 of 286 (657369)
03-27-2012 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Big_Al35
03-27-2012 4:13 PM


Re: Let's talk about Al
BigA writes:

Nuggin writes:

I'll simply ask you two questions:

#1) What do you feel is the best explanation for the fossils that exist?
#2) What would you expect/need to see to be convinced that fossils represent changes over time from one set of features to a different set of features?

My concern is that you appear to have only one explanation for how these fossils might have come about. Issues such as the effects of weathering, diet change, environmental factors, and medicine seem to be completely ignored. I am not even convinced by your dating arguments. And yes I am being honest!

Why didn't you answer the questions?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Big_Al35, posted 03-27-2012 4:13 PM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18971
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 254 of 286 (657378)
03-27-2012 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Big_Al35
03-27-2012 4:13 PM


Re: Let's talk about Al
Hi Big_Al35

... Issues such as the effects of weathering, diet change, environmental factors, and medicine seem to be completely ignored. ...

Curiously, diet change and environmental factors are what drive evolutionary changes over many generations, but these changes are slow.

Weathering could account for erosion of bones in various areas, but it doesn't rebuild bone inside what is worn away, and this is why some teeth look longer than others, but this does not change the overall dimensions of the teeth.

And medicine cannot alter skulls in a way that.

... I am not even convinced by your dating arguments. ...

Then let's discuss age dating methods.

We can start with Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1

And when you work your way all the way through the correlations, then we can get back to this.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Big_Al35, posted 03-27-2012 4:13 PM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 25 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(2)
Message 255 of 286 (657379)
03-27-2012 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Big_Al35
03-27-2012 4:13 PM


Re: Let's talk about Al
Issues such as the effects of weathering, diet change, environmental factors, and medicine seem to be completely ignored.

Is it possible that issues which you think "seem to be completely ignored" are actually issues about which you have not researched?

Have you bothered to look up what paleontologists have studies in regards to weather on fossils? Or about the effects of the various kinds of earth where they are found?

As for "diet change" and "medicine", I fail to understand exactly what your objection is?

Are you saying that paleontologists haven't studied T-Rex fossils to determine which medicines they were or were not taking?

On that you've got us. We also haven't studied to see if they liked Cheers episodes with or without Diane.

At a certain point, you restrict the research to only those things which are plausible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Big_Al35, posted 03-27-2012 4:13 PM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

    
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