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Author Topic:   Hyperbole in the Bible
Panda
Member (Idle past 1094 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 46 of 124 (640002)
11-06-2011 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by purpledawn
11-06-2011 2:53 AM


Re: Still Clueless
PD writes:

Since you feel that I still haven't addressed your point, I apparently still don't know what your point is. Sorry.

Maybe it would become clear if you describe how you identify if a statement is hyperbole?
From reading your opening post, it seems like you are taking the IDist's stance of "I'll know it when I see it."

You appear to be saying that you can compare myths/fiction to reality and automatically know which bits can be identified as hyperbole because they don't match reality.
But the very definition of 'fiction' involves aspects of it not matching reality (and which are not hyperbole).

So: how are you differentiating between 'myth' and 'hyperbole'?

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by purpledawn, posted 11-06-2011 2:53 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by purpledawn, posted 11-08-2011 8:47 AM Panda has responded
 Message 60 by Jon, posted 11-09-2011 11:05 PM Panda has responded

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 1751 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


(2)
Message 47 of 124 (640003)
11-06-2011 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by purpledawn
11-05-2011 5:16 PM


Hyperbole's Impotence Regarding the Limitations of Excess
If you call the stories about Paul hyperbole, then your definition of the word is different than mine. Perhaps we can leave things at that.

The idea that there is hyperbole in the Paul Bunyan story is not deemed so on my authority. I provided links to support that conclusion and here is another.

Pd, Ive gotta say Im fairly unconvinced youre in true disagreement with NoNukes entire position regarding some examples of hyperbole discussed in previous messages. To me, hyperbole's generally a form of ironic comparison achieved through excessive - and sometimes even ridiculous, similes and metaphors. The word itself means excess.

Obviously not all literary devices employed by fictional works are meant as hyperbole. So it kinda seems to me suggesting hyperbole cannot be found in American folktales featuring Paul Bunyan & Co. is as disingenuous as attempting to cast a general shadow on certain portion's of such a tale, which aren't supposed to serve as hyperbole, as though they were.

This is what Im seeing. The key may be in determining when seemingly exaggerative comparisons are not meant to be viewed as such. And perhaps we may gain this insight by further exploring the context of the work at hand.

I mean, no one who clearly understands Superman maintains abilities alien to the nature of a typical human would then suggest his ability to fly faster than a speeding bullet is meant as hyperbole. Even the suggestion it's meant as hyperbole detracts from the fact, within the context of the fictional narrative, Superman can indeed fly faster than any speeding bullet. He can actually fly around the Earth so fast time reverses.

For reasons such as these, we can know that faster than a speeding bullet is not only a poor example of hyperbole - being its no exaggeration; it cannot even meet the basic merits to be classified as such at all. The example of Paul Bunyans axe is similar in that it is not meant as hyperbole. However, when we examine the tales of Paul Bunyan such as Babe the Blue Ox, we can identify examples of hyperbole.

When we understand that Paul Bunyan is indeed a man of gigantic proportions and any creature raised in Paul Bunyan's camp tended to grow the same, we can know his axe did indeed scar the Earth, leaving canyons in the wake at times. We can eventually learn Babe used to be a normal ox of typical size and color, as well as his conversion to becoming an incredibly massive blue ox. This is the opening of the tale ..

The 1st paragraph of Babe the Blue Ox writes:

Well now, one winter it was so cold that all the geese flew backward and all the fish moved south and even the snow turned blue.

Late at night, it got so frigid that all spoken words froze solid afore they could be heard.

People had to wait until sunup to find out what folks were talking about the night before.

These are perhaps a few of the finest examples of hyperbole one could hope for when examining the nature of such a literary device. As youve stated, hyperbole often takes advantage of a sense of irony to achieve a comedic effect, which is what we see; geese flyin backwards and fish movin south.

Hyperbole even appears woven into the notion it was so cold people had to wait for the sun to rise before the words from their previous nights conversation could thaw out and be heard. However, we need to understand, the snow really did turn blue due to the excessive - perhaps arctic, like conditions. And we need to read more of the story before we can actually know this, as eventually we find out the blue snow stained Babes coat. So then, otherwise he wouldn't be blue.

Hence the seeming exaggeration regarding blue snow turns out not to be neither excessive or hyperbole in context.

Excessive size appears as another theme written into the fiction matter of factly. I'm considering that as we determine what is and isn't hyperbole within this context, as it may limit us from classifying certain comparisons, metaphors and similes - of seemingly exaggerative proportions, as hyperbole. When we jump to the fifth paragraph we learn ..

The 5th paragraph of Babe the Blue Ox writes:

Whenever he got an itch, Babe the Blue Ox had to find a cliff to rub against, 'cause whenever he tried to rub against a tree it fell over and begged for mercy.

To whet his appetite, Babe would chew up thirty bales of hay, wire and all.

It took six men with picaroons to get all the wire out of Babe's teeth after his morning snack.

Right after that he'd eat a ton of grain for lunch and then come pestering around the cook - Sourdough Sam - begging for another snack.

The first sentence strikes us with still another example of hyperbole. Yet, now it has become apparent the idea Babe was so big he needed to scratch his itch on a cliff or a tree - obviously, isnt it. The theme of excessive size being written into the story seems to excuse this as an example of hyperbole. We gain the sense the seemingly exaggerative metaphors, similes and comparisons of massive proportions written into the fiction are being employed to achieve different effects.

So while the context may not appear to as easily support hyperbole being found in the fact every time Babe rubbed against a tree it fell over, we can safely identify hyperbole in the notion that the trees took on an anthropomorphic quality as they begged for mercy after being knocked over due to fictional Babe's actual gigantism.

It doesnt matter whether its fact or fiction necessarily. Either way it seems helpful to determine to what degree certain comparisons, metaphors and similes are being exaggerated within various booklets of the bible by better understanding the specific context afforded in the literature. For example - we're to understand the Nephilim indeed were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown who were much larger than the average Yisraelite.

We can also recognize that - proportionately, the Yisraelites werent actually the size of grasshoppers (although they apparently felt that way) - that's ridiculous, and so, hyperbole. The exaggeration exposes it because while the Nephilim were big boys, they werent quite that big; Paul and Babe, however, were. There appears to be another issue at work.

I get the sense at times many christians are under the impression popular bible translations convey the true essence of the original Hebrew and Greek accurately enough. The fact the original languages can be highly exaggerative, to the excess that one with a Western view may sense the appearance of deception at times, appears to be often overlooked.

Anyway, hyperbole is exaggeration for effect.

I think were in a better position to understand hyperbole's relation to scripture, when we understand that often the original languages, as well as hyperbole are all exaggerative by their very natures. There needs to be a clear consensus to the constraints set forth in the narrative. I offer Matisyahu 23:24 as another clear and definable example of hyperbole.

Matisyahu 23:24 writes:

You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

There are certainly plenty more to discuss

One Love

Edited by Bailey, : repair link ..

Edited by Bailey, : grammar ..


I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by purpledawn, posted 11-05-2011 5:16 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 11-06-2011 7:10 PM Bailey has responded
 Message 51 by purpledawn, posted 11-07-2011 10:05 PM Bailey has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9438
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 48 of 124 (640013)
11-06-2011 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Bailey
11-06-2011 2:52 PM


Re: Hyperbole's Impotence Regarding the Limitations of Excess
I agree with most of your analysis. In rethinking things, I can agree that there certainly is hyperbole in the Paul Bunyan tales, but certainly not all of the extraordinary descriptions of Paul's height, weight and strength are hyperbole. The key in my opinion, is whether the seemingly exaggerated scale is intended to be taken literally or as a mere indication of bigness.

quote:

You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

Is this really hyperbole? I'd suggest not. Certainly a literary device is in use, but nobody is really claiming that any animals are being eaten or swallowed. Instead the comparison between gnat and camel is supposed to indicate how badly the Pharisees and teachers of the law had missed the mark by concentrating on relative minutia. I'd suggest that we are looking at a metaphor rather than hyperbole.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Bailey, posted 11-06-2011 2:52 PM Bailey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Bailey, posted 11-07-2011 2:10 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 65 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2011 7:47 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Bailey
Member (Idle past 1751 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


(1)
Message 49 of 124 (640045)
11-07-2011 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by NoNukes
11-06-2011 7:10 PM


Re: Hyperbole's Impotence Regarding the Limitations of Excess
I agree with most of your analysis. In rethinking things, I can agree that there certainly is hyperbole in the Paul Bunyan tales, but certainly not all of the extraordinary descriptions of Paul's height, weight and strength are hyperbole. The key in my opinion, is whether the seemingly exaggerated scale is intended to be taken literally or as a mere indication of bigness.

I think were on the same wavelength here. Im interested to learn where PD weighs in.

quote:
You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

Is this really hyperbole? I'd suggest not. Certainly a literary device is in use, but nobody is really claiming that any animals are being eaten or swallowed. Instead the comparison between gnat and camel is supposed to indicate how badly the Pharisees and teachers of the law had missed the mark by concentrating on relative minutia. I'd suggest that we are looking at a metaphor rather than hyperbole.

It certainly seems fair fodder for discussion.

Im of the opinion much of the exaggeration and irony employed within depictions of Joshuas dialogue take on a hyperbolic sense. Hyperbole operates on magnitude in different ways and, again, we find it here employing exaggeration for effect.

Like others within the radical prophetic traditions before him, we gain the sense they were masterfully exaggerative and ironic - consistently employing the essence of hyperbole within their language, with Joshua making apparently little exception. That said, while these things arent being suggested to necessarily diminish your conclusion - and quite the opposite actually, Im suggesting metaphors and similes are compatible with hyperbole.

For example, while I may be teetering on the edge of Godwins Law, if I were to say you may as well attend Nazi death camps than post in those threads its obviously a metaphor; however, theres also such an extreme element of imagery present the hyperbole contained within becomes hard to deny (I hope that didn't earn a citation).

After all, metaphors operate successfully on analogy providing the analogys an appropriate one. In this sense, Id take our original example a step further, identifying the hyperbole as being enveloped within the form of a metaphor; if you will - a metaphor operating on an analogy which is, in context, hyperbolically inappropriate in magnitude.

While this metaphor employing a sort of analogy between the comparison of straining at gnats and camels effectively expresses Joshuas disapproval regarding the Pharisees priorities, Id argue the extremism employed as another hint towards the presence of hyperbole. They routinely operate on ironic, extreme magnitudes and, at times, inappropriate comparisons - even at meal time, nobody is swallowing camels.

However, as you point out - meal preparations arent even actually being discussed, which seems to further isolate the analogy forming the plain metaphor as a failure of sorts. We find a certain sense of irony present serving as another indicator of the use of hyperbole, in the gnat - being one of the smallest critters, is removed without a problem though it should be harder to find than a camel - oh the irony, which gets left to be swallowed, as though its even possible.

Finally, the first will come last and the last shall be first (more hyperbole lol) - those being reprimanded arent actually blind. The extreme, excessive and exaggerated expression is being used to highlight their inability to successfully determine what is good, despise what is bad and accurately teach their conclusions to others (i.e. analogy).

Otherwise they could have simply been guides with so-so vision' (i.e. magnitude) [< happy blind emoticon]

(which, as we understand the use of hyperbole, is more or less what they actually were)

One Love


I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 11-06-2011 7:10 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2011 9:41 AM Bailey has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9438
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 50 of 124 (640093)
11-07-2011 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Bailey
11-07-2011 2:10 AM


Re: Hyperbole's Impotence Regarding the Limitations of Excess
Other than the fact that the thread is strictly about hyperbole, there may not be real reason (other than academic) in separating out the metaphors, hyperbole, and simile. In each case, it is clear that the words in question are not to be taken literally. Identifying the different literary devices may require different techniques, but in the end, we may be able to decide from the text what is literal and what is device.

On the other hand, if the entire story is allegorical, then the fact that metaphors and hyperbole are used is secondary to the fact that we aren't intended to believe that what is being described happened at all. The whole thing would instead be a like a parable.

In the case we are discussing, any fool can tell from the context that Jesus isn't particularly interested in the dangers of ingesting gnats and camels. But nobody seems to be arguing so far that Jesus didn't chew out the Pharisees.

In the case of Noah, it simply isn't clear that the 600+ years given for his age was not intended to be literal. Purple claims there is no setup of the type that is given for Superman, but I think she's wrong. Just as Superman has been described not to be like ordinary men, the Bible describes Noah also as not being like ordinary men. Noah is described as being from a line of men all of whom where just a few generations away from Adam who was created from dirt in God's image and lived 930 years. In my view that's plenty of setup for Noah's own age.

I don't have a huge problem with purpledawn believing that hyperbole was being used for Noah's age, but I think she is loathe to admit that she has decided a priori that the authors could not have intended the ages of Noah, Adam, Seth, Noah, et. al. to have exceeded 600 years despite any possible clues to the contrary in the text.

And of course mere hyperbole can't address many of the other seemingly impossible and contrary to known science events that are described in Genesis up to chapter 5. PD seems to be straining out the gnats while ignoring the camels.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : Fix the worst of the bad grammar


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Bailey, posted 11-07-2011 2:10 AM Bailey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Bailey, posted 11-09-2011 1:10 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 839 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 51 of 124 (640192)
11-07-2011 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Bailey
11-06-2011 2:52 PM


Re: Hyperbole's Impotence Regarding the Limitations of Excess
quote:
We can also recognize that - proportionately, the Yisraelites werent actually the size of grasshoppers (although they apparently felt that way) - that's ridiculous, and so, hyperbole. The exaggeration exposes it because while the Nephilim were big boys, they werent quite that big; Paul and Babe, however, were. There appears to be another issue at work.
Yes, the grasshopper reference is a good hyperbole. As for Paul Bunyan, I provided links that deal with hyperbole in tall tales.

quote:
Anyway, hyperbole is exaggeration for effect.
I understand that hyperbole is exaggeration for effect or to make a point. As I've shown with links hyperbole can be obvious or subtle.

Genesis 6:5 is an exaggeration to make the point that those were bad times.

The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

We compare against our reality and all humans don't literally have evil thoughts 24/7. After the flood God still considered the humans who survived to still have the evil inclination. Mankind didn't change, and the Bible tells of righteous people.

quote:
I think were in a better position to understand hyperbole's relation to scripture, when we understand that often the original languages, as well as hyperbole are all exaggerative by their very natures. There needs to be a clear consensus to the constraints set forth in the narrative. I offer Matisyahu 23:24 as another clear and definable example of hyperbole.
Yes there is a lot of exaggeration in the language, that's why we have to be careful what we deem literal. We don't seem to have difficulty recognizing the ones with the obvious format.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Bailey, posted 11-06-2011 2:52 PM Bailey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Bailey, posted 11-09-2011 1:45 PM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 839 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 52 of 124 (640280)
11-08-2011 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Panda
11-06-2011 2:10 PM


Identifying Hyperbole
quote:
You appear to be saying that you can compare myths/fiction to reality and automatically know which bits can be identified as hyperbole because they don't match reality.
But the very definition of 'fiction' involves aspects of it not matching reality (and which are not hyperbole).
Hyperbole is a type of figurative language. This is a way to use words to enable the audience to create an image in their mind. To do this the storyteller has to keep to what his audience will understand. For an audience to understand an exaggeration, it has to be exaggerating the reality that they know.

We aren't comparing myths or fiction to reality. We are comparing the wording used in the sentence to convey the image to the audience, to reality. We have to look at what is written. Declaring a story to be myth or fiction does not mean there are no hyperbolic statements in the story.

We don't differentiate between myth and hyperbole. Myth is a classification and hyperbole is a literary device.

I have provided plenty of links in this thread supporting the various shades of hyperbole and that hyperbole can be found in many genres. I have yet to see any outside support for the mystifying statements of my opposition.

If you disagree that a verse I've shared is hyperbole, then explain why you feel it doesn't fit the bill and provide support for your conclusion. Don't pick Noah's age because I've already yielded on that one twice.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Panda, posted 11-06-2011 2:10 PM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Panda, posted 11-08-2011 10:51 AM purpledawn has responded
 Message 54 by NoNukes, posted 11-08-2011 11:25 AM purpledawn has not yet responded
 Message 55 by PaulK, posted 11-08-2011 2:12 PM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 1094 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 53 of 124 (640296)
11-08-2011 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by purpledawn
11-08-2011 8:47 AM


Re: Identifying Hyperbole
PD writes:

Hyperbole is a type of figurative language. This is a way to use words to enable the audience to create an image in their mind. To do this the storyteller has to keep to what his audience will understand. For an audience to understand an exaggeration, it has to be exaggerating the reality that they know.

This still does not actually describe how you identify hyperbole, but maybe if we can work through an example it will become clearer.

PD writes:

If you disagree that a verse I've shared is hyperbole, then explain why you feel it doesn't fit the bill and provide support for your conclusion. Don't pick Noah's age because I've already yielded on that one twice.

Considering how few suggestions of hyperbole you have shared, there is not much to choose from. May I suggest another?
quote:
Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
Is this hyperbole?

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by purpledawn, posted 11-08-2011 8:47 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2011 6:48 AM Panda has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9438
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 54 of 124 (640298)
11-08-2011 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by purpledawn
11-08-2011 8:47 AM


Re: Identifying Hyperbole
purpledawn writes:

Hyperbole is a type of figurative language. This is a way to use words to enable the audience to create an image in their mind. To do this the storyteller has to keep to what his audience will understand. For an audience to understand an exaggeration, it has to be exaggerating the reality that they know.

Thanks for posting this. Perhaps it will give me a chance to clarify our disagreement.

But aspects of what you posted are clearly wrong.

An important aspect of hyperbole is that it is not intended to be taken literally. Since we both seem to agree that expressions of Superman's speed are not hyperbole, then we should also agree that exaggeration need not be an overstatement of reality, at least when the work is fiction. In reality, there are no Kryptonians and if even if there were, no beings from any planet are able to travel unaided at the speed of light or to violate conservation of momentum the way Supes does while flying.

Further, I think it is pointless to argue about whether things like "a land flowing with milk and honey" are mere hyperbole unless there are some people who believe such expressions are literal. Why don't we pick out some verses where you would suggest that some people are missing the mark by not recognizing the hyperbole? Preferably not Flood examples, but I'll take what I can get.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by purpledawn, posted 11-08-2011 8:47 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12565
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 55 of 124 (640317)
11-08-2011 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by purpledawn
11-08-2011 8:47 AM


Re: Identifying Hyperbole
quote:

We aren't comparing myths or fiction to reality. We are comparing the wording used in the sentence to convey the image to the audience, to reality.

What precisely is the difference ? Didn't the wording of the claim that Noah was 600 years old when the Flood began, convince you that it was hyperbole ? Because it did not match reality ?

Isn't it true that you need to consider genre and context as well as the wording of individual statements ?

quote:

Declaring a story to be myth or fiction does not mean there are no hyperbolic statements in the story.

And nobody has said otherwise.

quote:

I have provided plenty of links in this thread supporting the various shades of hyperbole and that hyperbole can be found in many genres. I have yet to see any outside support for the mystifying statements of my opposition.

Really, what's mystifying about the idea that things that are impossible in reality could happen in a myth ? If the Greek myths say that Herakles was the strongest man ever, that's not hyperbole, it's a feature of the myth.

You won't find anyone supporting the idea that there can't be hyperbole in a myth because nobody said it. It's just a strawman that you seem to be fixed on.

And why doesn't the point that Noah's age was NOT hyperbole count as support my central point better than anything you have produced for your central claims ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by purpledawn, posted 11-08-2011 8:47 AM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply

    
Bailey
Member (Idle past 1751 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


(1)
Message 56 of 124 (640430)
11-09-2011 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by NoNukes
11-07-2011 9:41 AM


Re: Hyperbole's Impotence Regarding the Limitations of Excess
I hear ya NoNu. All Ill add is considering to what degree certain comparisons, metaphors and similes within various booklets of the bible, or other works, may be exaggerated provides its own benefits. Our overall familiarity with the particular material steadily increases, as well as perhaps our ability to better discern literary technique every time were able to take advantage of the opportunities. Those benefits shone forth so bright, my cataracts' sunburned (xtra credit?).


Fo real tho, what may constitute exaggeration appears to maintain a certain degree of relativity in any given fiction, historical fiction or non-fiction. This appears to tinker with the ability to discern whether somethings to be taken literally or otherwise sometimes. Naturally, this limit to what may be considered excessive often seems easier to identify as the context of any given narrative develops, in turn assisting our determination of what's intended literally.

Weve seen temperatures so cold ice particles take on a bluish hue, 'literally' staining the fictional fur it melts on. Weve witnessed geese flyin backrds, fish movin south and trees beggin for mercy. Weve seen how a metaphor from the church testaments can assume the role of hyperbole, as well as how context may prevent the metaphor faster than a speeding bullet from accepting the role. And so it seems, as context develops, these limitations of excess appear to offer us the resources necessary to better assign a scope of magnitude towards a specific comparison, metaphor or simile.

In turn, were in a better position to determine when (and how) they may be serving as hyperbole or whether a function of excess may have been purposely integrated, consequently preventing a respective possibility. I think youll agree, until people understand Paul and Babe are anomalies - that they exist in a setting where the typical limitations of excess have been modified, theyre bound to mistake the issue that Babe uses cliffs and trees to itch as hyperbole.

Ironically, providing a theme of excess as a built-in feature of a written work may tend to prevent the practical or successful use of hyperbole, as well as the ability to recognize it. Without a clear consensus regarding the constraints set forth in a given text, many attempts to determine and discuss hyperbole almost seem doomed to beg and force their arrivals toward variant conclusions. Granted, while many won't be taking them literally, Paul, Babe and Noah still apparently all face similar challenges - its possible the victims are too numerous to count.

So in the end, if hyperbole operates on magnitude then it seems this magnitude may maintain relativity to the overall context of a given literary work. That said, perhaps rather than some perceiving apologies, what PD claims is hyperbole may become evident as we all sift the sands of the Flood Story through a JEDP filter. However, thats up to her.

It seems the more we understand the overall context a particular literary work presents, the better place were in to make determinations. In the end, whether fiction, historical fiction, non fiction, etc., the opportunity to identify hyperbole appears to vary depending on any given lease of grandeur, as well as limitations, set forth in the context of a narrative.

Thanks for the exchange good man ..

One Love


I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2011 9:41 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 1751 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 57 of 124 (640432)
11-09-2011 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by purpledawn
11-07-2011 10:05 PM


How to Reduce an Eternal Gobstopper to 39 Minutes or Less ..
Yes, the grasshopper reference is a good hyperbole. As for Paul Bunyan, I provided links that deal with hyperbole in tall tales ..

I understand that hyperbole is exaggeration for effect or to make a point. As I've shown with links hyperbole can be obvious or subtle ..

We compare against our reality and all humans don't literally have evil thoughts 24/7. After the flood God still considered the humans who survived to still have the evil inclination. Mankind didn't change, and the Bible tells of righteous people ..

Yes there is a lot of exaggeration in the language, that's why we have to be careful what we deem literal. We don't seem to have difficulty recognizing the ones with the obvious format ..

Even if we perceive whats obscure eventually, there seems to be an apparent issue with this obvious format

For example, theres only one of us - so far, able to recognize Noahs age as a hyperbole of sorts which the authors allegedly intended. Similarly, NoNukes and I had to discern whether the biblical metaphor presented in my previous message constituted hyperbole. As well, some are unable - so far, to recognize the fictional snow at Pauls house was so cold it literally turned blue or that his ox could fall trees.

As far as tall tales, I gotta say Im surprised - you should know flashin a lil of Mrs.Dowlings leg isnt likely to get anyone a better grade in here. Meanwhile, the link youve provided, (delivering a 404 error) has been thoroughly addressed.

If you feel weve missed something she has to show us, please, reserve brevity and demonstrate in your own words. Until then Ill linger with what has been clearly demonstrated; hyperbole is exaggeration for effect. Providing excess is a feature built into the work, it may not necessarily support the practical or successful use of hyperbole, much less foster the ability to recognize it. Ultimately, projecting a foreign setting (i.e. the context of our present reality, etc.) into a dated historical fiction may be a good way to create hyperbole in place of that which the authors originally designed.

Filtering potential hyperbole through the Documentary Hypothesis is but one way to approach scripture, and by no means a default position amongst laymen I think youll agree. That said, Im not one to take issue with those approaching different texts from the ToRaH as candidates for hyperbole through the lens of late twenty first century literary criticisms, as it is what it is. Yet, how do we know the authors intended us to view their story through modern academic criticisms?

Im thinkin this thread may need some sorta general consensus before any steady biblical analysis occurs. To prevent the perception of apologetics and some further confusion, may I suggest the OP be updated to request the considerations given toward hyperbole regarding the ToRaH and other relevant booklets be peered through this lens you're partial to?

Or at least, dont play coy many people dont share this view and that til they do, theyre bound to misunderstand you.

I agree genre doesnt preclude technique. However, we compare a given narrative against our reality when the context allows. We dont necessarily project our reality all willy nilly like into the context of an historical fiction or fiction, just as we dont do that with myths. When we do, we should expect bits of trouble identifying some literary techniques.

Its been demonstrated context slowly instructs how seeming exaggerations may be revealed as neither excessive or hyperbole in context. If you disagree, simply show how context is irrelevant, or perhaps a hindrance, towards determining what may constitute as hyperbole in a given work.

All Im sayin is if were not certain the author expects us to project our reality into the context of their writing, or worst yet - were certain they do, but they didnt - the risk of missing what they intended to present to us increases. Imagine performing a literary analysis of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory this way ..

The elevator quits goin' sideways and the Ever-Lasting GobstopperTM's reduced to 39 minutes!

One Love

Edited by Bailey, : grammar ..


I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by purpledawn, posted 11-07-2011 10:05 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by purpledawn, posted 11-09-2011 4:19 PM Bailey has responded

  
EWCCC777
Junior Member (Idle past 1904 days)
Posts: 22
Joined: 11-07-2011


Message 58 of 124 (640433)
11-09-2011 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Coragyps
11-01-2011 12:12 PM


Re: 50,070 men?
To me it seems that the 50,000 smitten was either in addition to or including the ones who looked in.

And, if God is real, and is capable of creating life, He is certainly capable of mass destruction.

Though the story doesn't make it into Bible storybooks, I do know many Christians who read straight from the Bible itself to their children (I am one, and I too was read the KJV as a child, even with all of its blood and gore. May be questionable parenting to you, who are most certainly entitled to your opinion, but to me it seemed normal. I also grew up with the understanding that the arrival of Jesus in human form provided for violence toward others in the name of God to become unnecessary and absolutely unacceptable).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Coragyps, posted 11-01-2011 12:12 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

    
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 839 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 59 of 124 (640443)
11-09-2011 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Bailey
11-09-2011 1:45 PM


Context
quote:
Its been demonstrated context slowly instructs how seeming exaggerations may be revealed as neither excessive or hyperbole in context. If you disagree, simply show how context is irrelevant, or perhaps a hindrance, towards determining what may constitute as hyperbole in a given work.
Actually I don't feel that anyone has. The issue with Noah's age, which I yielded on, is an odd situation due to possibly being a later addition.

All I've been shown are examples of stories that contain hyperbole. These don't show me that what I've shared and not yielded on cannot be hyperbole.

God saw that the wickedness of mankind was great. How great was it? It was so great that their thoughts were evil 24/7.

What in the context deems Gensis 6:5 not to be hyperbole?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Bailey, posted 11-09-2011 1:45 PM Bailey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by PaulK, posted 11-10-2011 2:01 AM purpledawn has responded
 Message 77 by Bailey, posted 11-10-2011 2:25 PM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 124 (640463)
11-09-2011 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Panda
11-06-2011 2:10 PM


Re: Still Clueless
From reading your opening post, it seems like you are taking the IDist's stance of "I'll know it when I see it."

How else does one recognize figurative language?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Panda, posted 11-06-2011 2:10 PM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Panda, posted 11-10-2011 5:32 AM Jon has responded

  
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