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Author Topic:   Hyperbole in the Bible
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12956
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 61 of 124 (640474)
11-10-2011 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by purpledawn
11-09-2011 4:19 PM


Re: Context
quote:

Actually I don't feel that anyone has. The issue with Noah's age, which I yielded on, is an odd situation due to possibly being a later addition.

That's odd. It was the many greater ages in Genesis 5 - none of which shows the signs of simple hyperbole - that convinced you. That IS context. (And I would note that the "late addition" criterion is also not part of "comparing the statement against reality" - and doesn't seem to make much sense either).

Do you also feel that all the ages of Genesis 5 are late additions ? What stops you from viewing them as hyperbole ? The statements, compared to reality, appear to be extremely exaggerated.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by purpledawn, posted 11-09-2011 4:19 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2011 6:02 AM PaulK has responded

    
Panda
Member (Idle past 1207 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 62 of 124 (640479)
11-10-2011 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Jon
11-09-2011 11:05 PM


Re: Still Clueless
Jon writes:

How else does one recognize figurative language?

How would you identify hyperbole in the bible?
How would you differentiate 'hyperbole' from 'extraordinary truth'?

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Jon, posted 11-09-2011 11:05 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Jon, posted 11-10-2011 11:47 AM Panda has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 951 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 63 of 124 (640480)
11-10-2011 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by PaulK
11-10-2011 2:01 AM


Noah's Age Again
Since I've conceded on Noah's age, I am baffled as to why it is still an issue and we aren't moving forward.

My explanations for yielding are in Message 22 and Message 41. Neither said anything about Genesis 5. The ages are exaggerated when compared to reality. The exaggerated age doesn't seem to be written to stimulate a visual image in our mind's eye. The agees were probably more about filling a gap.

Yes, per Friedman, Genesis 5 was added by the Redactor.

Edited by purpledawn, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by PaulK, posted 11-10-2011 2:01 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by PaulK, posted 11-10-2011 7:57 AM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 951 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 64 of 124 (640481)
11-10-2011 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Panda
11-08-2011 10:51 AM


Re: Identifying Hyperbole
Yes, I would consider Genesis 7:19 to be hyperbole.

All hills, whole heaven. It was a very bad flood.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Panda, posted 11-08-2011 10:51 AM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Panda, posted 11-10-2011 7:59 AM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 951 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 65 of 124 (640487)
11-10-2011 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by NoNukes
11-06-2011 7:10 PM


Re: Hyperbole's Impotence Regarding the Limitations of Excess
quote:
Is this really hyperbole? I'd suggest not. Certainly a literary device is in use, but nobody is really claiming that any animals are being eaten or swallowed. Instead the comparison between gnat and camel is supposed to indicate how badly the Pharisees and teachers of the law had missed the mark by concentrating on relative minutia. I'd suggest that we are looking at a metaphor rather than hyperbole.
Interesting that you don't consider Matthew 23:24 to be a hyperbole.

You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. Matthew 23:24

The camel and gnat are not being compared to each other. Straining out gnats or their larvae from one's drinking water was common. The camel is an exaggeration of what can be swallowed, let alone be found in one's water. Humor of the day.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 11-06-2011 7:10 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Bailey, posted 11-10-2011 7:58 PM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply
 Message 82 by NoNukes, posted 11-10-2011 9:33 PM purpledawn has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12956
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 66 of 124 (640488)
11-10-2011 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by purpledawn
11-10-2011 6:02 AM


Re: Noah's Age Again
quote:

Since I've conceded on Noah's age, I am baffled as to why it is still an issue and we aren't moving forward.

We're aren't arguing about whether Noah's age is hyperbole - we are using it as an example of how to identify hyperbole. In large part BECAUSE you agree that it isn't hyperbole, but also because you NOW reject my reasons for saying so but don't seem able to offer any valid alternatives.

quote:

My explanations for yielding are in Message 22 and Message 41. Neither said anything about Genesis 5.

That is either untrue or intentionally misleading. You implicitly refer to the ages in Genesis 5 In message 22.

quote:

The ages are exaggerated when compared to reality.

In other words, by your "comparison to reality" criterion you should consider them to be hyperbole.

quote:

The exaggerated age doesn't seem to be written to stimulate a visual image in our mind's eye. The ages were probably more about filling a gap.

The "filling a gap" explanation seems pretty weak (being short of evidence and reasoning).
But note, that this reasoning is NOT about either a comparison to reality or about being a late addition. Doesn't the fact that your stated criteria need to be augmented to deal with this case suggest that you need to rethink ? Doesn't the fact that you keep referring to the ages in Genesis 5 suggest that they ARE relevant to Noah's age in the Flood story?

And you still leave important points unaddressed. Do you really take the position that acts attributed to God should be limited to what is naturalistically possible ? How do you feel about the creation of the rainbow at the end of the Flood story ? Hyperbole ? Literal fact ? Or Myth ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2011 6:02 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2011 9:19 AM PaulK has responded

    
Panda
Member (Idle past 1207 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 67 of 124 (640489)
11-10-2011 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by purpledawn
11-10-2011 6:48 AM


Re: Identifying Hyperbole
purpledawn writes:

Yes, I would consider Genesis 7:19 to be hyperbole.

All hills, whole heaven. It was a very bad flood.

This rather goes against what I thought was the accepted understanding of the flood.
If not all hills were covered then many people/animals could have survived on the uncovered hills.
(I would suggest that it would have been a better idea for god to have told noah to build a wooden building on one of those hills rather than an ark.)

So, how do we decide between your claim of hyperbole and other people's claim of accuracy?
What are you using to decide the Genesis quote is hyperbole, when others simply see a statement of fact?

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2011 6:48 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2011 9:37 AM Panda has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 951 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 68 of 124 (640494)
11-10-2011 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by PaulK
11-10-2011 7:57 AM


Re: Noah's Age Again
Genesis 5 was not the basis for agreeing that Noah's exaggerated age might not be a true hyperbole as it is used in the story. His age doesn't make a point concerning the story.

As for the rainbow question, if you have a verse you feel I would consider to be hyperbole, please provide the verse.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by PaulK, posted 11-10-2011 7:57 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by PaulK, posted 11-10-2011 1:33 PM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 951 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 69 of 124 (640495)
11-10-2011 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Panda
11-10-2011 7:59 AM


Re: Identifying Hyperbole
As I said in Message 1, this thread is not about what Christianity teaches. It is about what the text says.

Since the flood didn't cover the planet, there were plenty of places for people to go. Notice the Nephilum were still around after the flood. Genesis 6:4.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Panda, posted 11-10-2011 7:59 AM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Panda, posted 11-10-2011 10:27 AM purpledawn has responded
 Message 71 by NoNukes, posted 11-10-2011 11:11 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 1207 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 70 of 124 (640503)
11-10-2011 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by purpledawn
11-10-2011 9:37 AM


Re: Identifying Hyperbole
PD writes:

As I said in Message 1, this thread is not about what Christianity teaches. It is about what the text says.

So, how do we decide between your claim of hyperbole and other people's claim of accuracy?
What are you using to decide the Genesis quote is hyperbole, when others simply see a statement of fact?

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2011 9:37 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2011 11:25 AM Panda has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 124 (640512)
11-10-2011 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by purpledawn
11-10-2011 9:37 AM


Re: Identifying Hyperbole
Since the flood didn't cover the planet, there were plenty of places for people to go. Notice the Nephilum were still around after the flood. Genesis 6:4.

I'd agree that there is some hyperbole associated with 6:4, but I don't know how you tell what is literal and what is not. Were the Nephilum really demigods? Were the later tales of giant people actually related to these same folk? Or were these guys just a bunch of well fed, fit, fierce, street-fighting men that nobody was really inclined to take on.

If they weren't really weren't some kind of pre-flood superfolk, then they aren't much evidence at all about whether the flood was global.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2011 9:37 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 951 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 72 of 124 (640523)
11-10-2011 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Panda
11-10-2011 10:27 AM


Re: Identifying Hyperbole
quote:
So, how do we decide between your claim of hyperbole and other people's claim of accuracy?
What are you using to decide the Genesis quote is hyperbole, when others simply see a statement of fact?
Asked and answered. How do you determine hyperbole in any other book you read. It's your turn to explain.

If you want to argue the position that the verse is fact, then make your argument. I'm not going to debate against a position not presented by a participant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Panda, posted 11-10-2011 10:27 AM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Panda, posted 11-10-2011 12:30 PM purpledawn has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 124 (640531)
11-10-2011 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Panda
11-10-2011 5:32 AM


Re: Still Clueless
Jon writes:

Panda writes:

From reading your opening post, it seems like you are taking the IDist's stance of "I'll know it when I see it."


How else does one recognize figurative language?

How would you identify hyperbole in the bible?
How would you differentiate 'hyperbole' from 'extraordinary truth'?

Wasn't that pretty much answered with the rhetorical question I presented to you?

When I see hyperbole, or any other figurative language, I'll know it.

There is no formula.

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Panda, posted 11-10-2011 5:32 AM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Panda, posted 11-10-2011 12:31 PM Jon has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 1207 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 74 of 124 (640541)
11-10-2011 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by purpledawn
11-10-2011 11:25 AM


Re: Identifying Hyperbole
Panda writes:

So, how do we decide between your claim of hyperbole and other people's claim of accuracy?
What are you using to decide the Genesis quote is hyperbole, when others simply see a statement of fact?

PD writes:

Asked and answered.

No, you have not answered this.
You can tell that you have not answered this by the number of people in this thread asking you to describe how you are deciding if things are hyperbole or not.

PD writes:

How do you determine hyperbole in any other book you read. It's your turn to explain.

If you want to argue the position that the verse is fact, then make your argument.

You are claiming that the verse is not fact, but when asked to explain your claim, you say "Prove it is fact!".
If your intention in this thread was to say "The following bible phrases are hyperbole. Prove me wrong!" then I think you are shifting the burden of proof to the wrong people.

Panda writes:

I'm not going to debate against a position not presented by a participant.

But you are the one who is meant to present a position.
And since you are reluctant to do so, I am finding it difficult to debate that position with you.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2011 11:25 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2011 3:10 PM Panda has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 1207 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 75 of 124 (640542)
11-10-2011 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Jon
11-10-2011 11:47 AM


Re: Still Clueless
Jon writes:

When I see hyperbole, or any other figurative language, I'll know it.

How?

And do you think that "I'll just know" is a 100% reliable method of identifying hyperbole?

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Jon, posted 11-10-2011 11:47 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Jon, posted 11-11-2011 12:59 PM Panda has acknowledged this reply

  
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