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Author Topic:   Hyperbole in the Bible
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9997
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 91 of 124 (640661)
11-11-2011 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Jon
11-11-2011 12:59 PM


Re: Still Clueless
No methods are 100% reliable. But when it comes to recognizing figurative language, "I'll know it when I see it" is the only method we have.

"Know it when I see it," is possible the only method you have. I think it is possible to do much better than that, and to do so fairly reliably. I would also agree that no method is 100% objective, but you propose a method that is 0% objective.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Jon, posted 11-11-2011 12:59 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Jon, posted 11-12-2011 12:43 AM NoNukes has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9997
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 92 of 124 (640662)
11-11-2011 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by purpledawn
11-11-2011 10:16 AM


Re: Gnats and Camels
I assumed you understood I'm talking about the sentence, not the paragraph.

What sentence? Maybe I did miss something because I have no idea what you are talking about.

ABE:

I think you are saying that I applied my argument to more context than you intended.

Edited by NoNukes, : ABE


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by purpledawn, posted 11-11-2011 10:16 AM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply

    
Bailey
Member (Idle past 1928 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


(1)
Message 93 of 124 (640664)
11-11-2011 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
10-31-2011 8:08 AM


The Kings of Exaggeration (Minus the Humor or Irony)
Many times we have examined the accuracy and inerrancy of Bible passages, but how many were simply exaggerations? Although I dislike apologetics, I would like to look at various passages considered by some to be contradictions or absolute statements and see if hyperbole comes into play.

You're conflating the two.

Exaggeration and hyperbole are similiar, not synonymous.

Hyperbole's a specific form of exaggeration producing irony, etc..

An exaggeration not producing the effects isn't hyperbole.

It's an exaggeration.

Good Kings

2 Kings 18:5 - Hezekiah trusted in the LORD, the God of Israel. There was no one like him among all the kings of Judah, either before him or after him.
2 Kings 23:25 - Neither before nor after Josiah was there a king like him who turned to the LORD as he did--with all his heart and with all his soul and with all his strength, in accordance with all the Law of Moses.

The above verses are simply an exaggerated way to say they were good kings. We use similar exaggerations when complementing people.

Here goes ..

Ill take a swing at bein' pithy.

Exaggeration has been mistaken for hyperbole.

Your intent seems to be demonstrating no contradictions.

Youve claimed both these as hyperbole to achieve the result.

The author may simply be telling us each king was one of a kind.

Hyperbole achieves humor and irony through exaggeration, for effect.

Highly exaggerated examples clearly convey the discourse goal of humor and/or irony.

Both verses employ universal negatives suggesting neither before nor after and absolutes simply indicate excess.

Less extreme exaggeration is more effective towards providing simple over statements.

I agree these are exaggerated and disagree theyre hyperbole.

Exaggeration simply occurs when things are overstated.

Hyperbole employs obvious, intentional exaggeration.

We have no contradiction, no humor and no irony.

Weve no evidence (i.e. effect) for hyperbole.

Just plain ol fashioned exaggeration.

One Love


I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 10-31-2011 8:08 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by purpledawn, posted 11-11-2011 3:55 PM Bailey has responded

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 1928 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


(1)
Message 94 of 124 (640665)
11-11-2011 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Jon
11-11-2011 12:59 PM


A Better Way?
There is no formula. I cannot give you a list of rules or checks that I can use to recognize figurative language.

But when I see it, I will know I have seen it.

No methods are 100% reliable.

But when it comes to recognizing figurative language, "I'll know it when I see it" is the only method we have.

I politely disagree Jon.

Our difficulty with interpreting isnt coincidence.

Blind faith in our ability to perceive something were unable to define is one way.

Learning about the authors culture, time and place assists us in understanding their expressions.

We have a hard time with figuration in scriptures when lacking that valuable information.

It also helps to understand the purpose and limits of a given literary technique.

The more we lack, the more challenging the task.

Just ask the average christian

One Love


I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Jon, posted 11-11-2011 12:59 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Jon, posted 11-12-2011 12:42 AM Bailey has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1015 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 95 of 124 (640677)
11-11-2011 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Bailey
11-11-2011 1:45 PM


Re: The Kings of Exaggeration (Minus the Humor or Irony)
Hyperbole is exaggeration for effect.
Hyperbole can include contradiction, but it's not a requirement.
Hyperbole can be for humorous effect but it's not a requirement

Please show outside support that hyperbole must contain all three.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Bailey, posted 11-11-2011 1:45 PM Bailey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Bailey, posted 11-11-2011 8:02 PM purpledawn has responded

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 1928 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 96 of 124 (640694)
11-11-2011 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by purpledawn
11-11-2011 3:55 PM


Re: The Kings of Exaggeration (Minus the Humor or Irony)
Honestly, no one has said all three must be present except you.

To stake your claim at least one should be evident though.

Please show any support the verse contains hyperbole.

One Love


I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by purpledawn, posted 11-11-2011 3:55 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by purpledawn, posted 11-12-2011 4:27 AM Bailey has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 124 (640705)
11-12-2011 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Bailey
11-11-2011 2:15 PM


Re: A Better Way?
Learning about the authors culture, time and place assists us in understanding their expressions.

We have a hard time with figuration in scriptures when lacking that valuable information.

It also helps to understand the purpose and limits of a given literary technique.

All of that certainly helps us identify figurative language...

... when we see it.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Bailey, posted 11-11-2011 2:15 PM Bailey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Bailey, posted 11-12-2011 4:09 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 124 (640706)
11-12-2011 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by NoNukes
11-11-2011 1:22 PM


Re: Still Clueless
I think it is possible to do much better than that, and to do so fairly reliably.

Then I suppose you can lay out a method?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2011 1:22 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by NoNukes, posted 11-12-2011 12:01 PM Jon has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1015 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 99 of 124 (640712)
11-12-2011 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Bailey
11-11-2011 8:02 PM


Re: The Kings of Exaggeration (Minus the Humor or Irony)
In Message 93, you stated that hyperbole was a specific type of exaggeration producing irony etc.

Irony is basically contradiction.
Hyperbole is exaggeration for effect.

I understood your conclusion to say that there is no hyperbole concerning the kings because the exaggeration contained no irony and no humor.

What I understood from that was that you feel that intentional exaggeration can only be considered hyperbole if it contains both irony and humor.

That's why I said hyperbole can contain contradiction, which is irony, but it isn't a requirement. Hyperbole can contain humor, but it isn't a requirement.

I have not claimed that hyperbole must contain either or both irony and humor.

If your contention is that hyperbole must contain either irony or humor or both, please show outside support for that premise.

As you said the verses use the universal negative. Neither before nor after and absolutes indicate excess.

I agree the auther is probably saying the kings were unique. Each can be unique in their own way.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Bailey, posted 11-11-2011 8:02 PM Bailey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Bailey, posted 11-12-2011 12:49 PM purpledawn has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9997
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 100 of 124 (640740)
11-12-2011 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Jon
11-12-2011 12:43 AM


Re: Still Clueless
Then I suppose you can lay out a method?

I think I can. I believe we can easily spot most of the literary devices in the Bible by determining which descriptions are meant not to be taken literally base on context. If we know more about the idioms and means of expression that were commonly used by Biblical authors, we should be able to identify almost every such instance.

Of course, there will be some things that cannot be clearly classify, and we may never know the scope of exaggeration present in some of those descriptions that we correctly identify as not literal. But those things we cannot identify are likely only a tiny portion of the entire text.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Jon, posted 11-12-2011 12:43 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Jon, posted 11-13-2011 2:30 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Bailey
Member (Idle past 1928 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 101 of 124 (640745)
11-12-2011 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by purpledawn
11-12-2011 4:27 AM


Re: The Kings of Exaggeration (Minus the Humor or Irony)
Pd, the idea the verses contain exaggeration, rather than hyperbole, doesn't appear to effect whether or not they may be contradictory, rather than overstatements. I'm not certain, but it appears evident you're devising apologetics in an attempt to avoid a non-existent contradiction by reappropriating the given functions of established literary techniques.

Please, make a valid attempt to support your claim at some point.

I understood your conclusion to say that there is no hyperbole concerning the kings because the exaggeration contained no irony and no humor.

Irony is basically contradiction.
Hyperbole is exaggeration for effect.


I contend there's no hyperbole concerning the kings because the verses don't appear as more than simple exaggerations.

The exaggerations contain no irony or humor, and each example is without contradiction also.

Please demonstrate what constitutes the exaggerations as more than mere overstatements.

IOW, apart from Pastor Moss nod, what constitutes them as hyperbole?

Btw, irony and contradiction arent synonymous either.

Not that it matters if they were in this instance ..

Both are absent.

What I understood from that was that you feel that intentional exaggeration can only be considered hyperbole if it contains both irony and humor.

You appear to have misread, and so, misunderstood.

quote:
Highly exaggerated examples clearly convey the discourse goal of humor and/or irony.

So far we have no contradiction, humor or irony - and much less, any evidence (i.e. effect) for hyperbole from you.

Exaggerations are not defined by contradiction, irony and/or humor, but rather simple overstatements.

Hyperbole is comprised, and defined, by these very dynamics through the vehicle of exaggeration.

General overstatements indicate the tell tale signs of basic exaggeration.

Contradiction, irony and/or humor are each tell tale signs of hyperbole.

The couple examples in Kings appear to contain none of the three.

With your exception, no ones implied all three must be present.

To stake your claim you must provide evidence of hyperbole ..

Or be satisfied that you've encountered an exaggeration.

Please provide any support the verses contain the former.

Or, conversely, you can simply retract your claim.

That's why I said hyperbole can contain contradiction, which is irony ..

If you're contending hyperbole and exaggeration are synonymous, please provide outside support for that premise.

If you're contending irony and contradiction are synonymous, please provide outside support for that premise also.

Again, whether or not you agree, exaggeration and hyperbole are similar, not synonymous.

Now, likewise, irony and contradiction possess similarities, but arent synonymous.

As I said, it doesn't matter if they were in this instance, since neither is present.


abe ..

I have not claimed that hyperbole must contain either or both irony and humor.

No one has and I know what you claim: these verses in Kings display hyperbole.

You proceed to refuse any demonstration as to how or why that is, apart from stating, exaggerations are common.

However, the fact exaggerations are common to find doesn't make this one hyperbole, so what allegedly does?

If your contention is that hyperbole must contain either irony or humor or both, please show outside support for that premise.

My contention is the verses don't contain hyperbole. It was supported by noting the plain exaggerations don't obviously convey any of the intended discourse goals hyperbole is known to commonly produce (i.e. contradiction, humor, irony, etc.).

Demonstrate what constitutes the exaggerations in the Kings booklet as hyperbole, apart from your declaration it's so.

Otherwise, it seems fairly obvious the verses don't display any.


In my most humble opinion, this is what you're demonstrating as a means - applying ambiguity between definitions of exaggeration, contradiction, hyperbole and irony fosters the proper environment to better misappropriate each term.

This increased opportunity to reappropriate specific literary techniques should better allow the successful misdiagnosis of any given literary work, in the same way that reappropriating interpolated doctrinal projections over specific cultural definitions captured within original hebrew and greek better allows the successful misinterpretation of scripture.

Now our end - what constitutes simple overstatements defining exaggeration as hyperbole? IOW, without any obvious intentional contradiction, humor, irony, etc., what identifies a simple overstatement - defining exaggeration, as hyperbole?

Btw, if you getta chance, please provide any support the verses contain hyperbole.

Or concede they do not

One Love

Edited by Bailey, : grammar ..

Edited by Bailey, : sp.

Edited by Bailey, : abe ..


I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by purpledawn, posted 11-12-2011 4:27 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by purpledawn, posted 11-12-2011 4:29 PM Bailey has responded

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 1928 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 102 of 124 (640757)
11-12-2011 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Jon
11-12-2011 12:42 AM


On Studying the Bible Like Hyperb-Ali ..
All of that certainly helps us identify figurative language...

... when we see it.

lol I hear ya brother and we'll probably miss it if we pull an ostrich

Employing faith in an ability to learn hebrew culture and basic literary technique through osmosis seems a lil backrd.

I kno you agree it takes effort, diligence and time, yet when we persevere in our studies we may someday be able say ...

'I'm experienced now, professional. Jaws been broke, been knocked down a couple of times, I'm bad! Been chopping trees. I done something new for this fight. I done wrestled with an alligator. That's right. I have wrestled with an alligator. I done tussled with a whale. I done handcuffed lightning, thrown thunder in jail. That's bad! Only last week I murdered a rock, injured a stone, hospitalized a brick! I'm so mean I make medicine sick!'
~ Muhammad Hyperb-Ali

To those that have eyes ..

One Love

Edited by Bailey, : added jazz ..


I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Jon, posted 11-12-2011 12:42 AM Jon has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1015 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 103 of 124 (640759)
11-12-2011 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Bailey
11-12-2011 12:49 PM


Re: The Kings of Exaggeration (Minus the Humor or Irony)
You still didn't provide support that hyperbole must contain irony or humor.

The universal negative is my basis for viewing the verses as possible hyperbole. As you said, absolutes Are excess.

The following link contains examples considered to be hyperbole. In that list the are some that contain absolutes.

Hyperbole Examples

I have now provided support for my reasoning again.

When we look at the thesaurus we see that hyperbole and exaggeration are synonyms.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Bailey, posted 11-12-2011 12:49 PM Bailey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Bailey, posted 11-12-2011 5:27 PM purpledawn has responded

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 1928 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 104 of 124 (640760)
11-12-2011 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by purpledawn
11-12-2011 4:29 PM


Re: The Kings of Exaggeration (Minus the Humor or Irony)
I agree when you conflate exaggeration and hyperbole, the latter becomes easier to find in the bible.

You still didn't provide support that hyperbole must contain irony or humor.

Nor will I anytime soon - you're supposed to be providing support for your own arguments.

I didn't supply that implication, rather you did, and I'm not here to support your desperate and fleeting implications.

They were presented merely as examples of what hyperbole is commonly known to produce as an intended discourse goal.

The universal negative is my basis for viewing the verses as possible hyperbole. As you said, absolutes Are excess.

You have demonstrated absolutes, such as universal negatives, achieve exaggeration.

You are supposed to show the verses in Kings display hyperbole though. Oh well.

The following link contains examples considered to be hyperbole. In that list the are some that contain absolutes.

Hyperbole Examples

I have now provided support for my reasoning again.

That's a bare link and, as such, you've provided support for nothing. Please demonstrate in your own words.

When we look at the thesaurus we see that hyperbole and exaggeration are synonyms.

When we go to grammar school and then to college we learn they're similiar, yet with distiction.

lol you could have just said you're unable or unwilling to differentiate between the two

Now you too may preach how the bible's full of it

One Love


I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by purpledawn, posted 11-12-2011 4:29 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by purpledawn, posted 11-13-2011 5:44 AM Bailey has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 124 (640776)
11-13-2011 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by NoNukes
11-12-2011 12:01 PM


Re: Still Clueless
Jon writes:

Then I suppose you can lay out a method?

I think I can. I believe we can easily spot most of the literary devices in the Bible by determining which descriptions are meant not to be taken literally base on context. If we know more about the idioms and means of expression that were commonly used by Biblical authors, we should be able to identify almost every such instance.

Of course, there will be some things that cannot be clearly classify, and we may never know the scope of exaggeration present in some of those descriptions that we correctly identify as not literal. But those things we cannot identify are likely only a tiny portion of the entire text.

Then what's the method?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by NoNukes, posted 11-12-2011 12:01 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by NoNukes, posted 11-13-2011 4:50 AM Jon has responded

  
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