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Author Topic:   Where do Creationists think the Theory of Evolution comes from?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 106 of 109 (391892)
03-27-2007 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by ICANT
03-27-2007 2:23 PM


Re: email reply for ICANT
(Message 104)
Arnold claimed to have the complete library.
Take all metaphors with a grain of salt.
(message 104 cont)
That sounds like wonder dog the cartoon.
The point being that no matter what evolves from current dogs they will still be descendants of dogs - they will still be in the dog clade, or as creationists like to say (demonstrating a misunderstanding of evolution in the process) they will always be dogs.
(message 104 cont)
Fun aside I am a farm boy so I know about different breeds of dogs, hogs, cows, chickens. Different types or corn, cotton tobacco tomatoes. So I can understand about different types of forams.
I also know that the most amazing tool we had on the farm was a mule and the only way you could produce one was to cross a jack and a mare. You could not create a new species of mules that could reproduce.
This infertility is evidence of speciation between horses and donkeys. There are similar hybrids between horses or donkeys and zebras. Being able to produce (albeit sterile) offspring is also evidence of close relationships of horses, donkeys and zebras - and of their descent from a common ancestor population that split up at some time in the past into these sub-populations that have become daughter species.
We see similar genetic hybrids being made by artificial insemination between other closely related species, even though some have been separated for considerable time - compared to our experience. You may have heard of Ligers, as another such example (lion tiger hybrid), but the most distant one I am aware of is the one between a camel and a llama.
Cama (animal) - Wikipedia
Some kind of isolation - either geographical or behavioral - separated the sub-populations. Then over time each sub-population acquired different mutations, and different mutations were selected by their interactions with the environment(s) and mate(s) until sufficient difference had accumulated that the sub-populations were no longer sufficiently inter-fertile to produce breeding offspring. They have not reached the point (yet) of accumulating sufficient differences that total loss of inter-fertility will occur (nor is it necessary for them to do so, it's just a possibility, and depends more on how much {stasis in a stable environment} versus {genetic drift in a population) occurs in the daughter-populations ... and whether or not the wild stock goes extinct).
quote:
...artificial insemination was required to impregnate the Llama female (matings of llama male to Dromedary female have proven unsuccessful). ... A second Cama (female) has since been produced using artificial insemination. Because Camels and Llamas both have 74 chromosomes, scientists hope that the Cama will be fertile.
This of course also raises the question of what really is a species. Will the Cama become a new species if it breeds? Species has been a human invention of classification rather than a had and fast distinction between individuals in closely related populations. It is more of a functional division than anything else.
(message 105)
Are you stating here that all living life forms came from the first single cell life form?
Not necesarily. What I am saying is that the evidence for the first life is single cell and 3.5 billion years old. This is also the oldest piece of sedimentary rock found that would be capable of preserving fossils of early life - all older rocks found so far have been transformed by {metamorphic\volcanic} processes that would destroy such evidence. This means we are left with the origin of life undefined and undefinable by the fossil evidence (other than being older than the 3.5 billion year old rocks). It's like losing old family pictures in a house fire.
Then the first evidence of multicellular life is about a billion years old. This most likely evolved from a single cell life, and there are studies made of some single cell life that adapts a multicell group clustering under certain conditions. See
King Lab - UC Berkeley
Whether there was a single original cell or not is mute at this point -- the evidence cannot tell us this answer, so the best answer is "we don't know" - it may be one cell line, it may be several that exchanged genetic information through horizontal gene transfer, a form of single cell "sex"?
Page Not Found | HHMI BioInteractive
If so how long did it take that single cell life form to come into existence?
Where did it come from?
What caused it to come into existence?
There is about a billion years from the formation of the earth and the first evidence of life noted above. Where did it come from is a question we don't know - and likely can't know - the answer to due to the problem of destruction of the evidence. What caused it is also anyones guess at this point - we don't have any evidence of how if formed so it is not possible to define the causes (with evidence).
This is really about abiogenesis (which is separate from evolution) and is an interesting topic in it's own right. For some of my take on this see RAZD - Building Blocks of Life
Remember you are talking to a very old ignorant person when it comes to evolution so keep the answers simple and straight to the point or it will go right over my head. Thanks
We can compare notes and see who is older (which is no barrier to learning) and see where my knowledge is ignorant compared to yours.
There are many things I have learned at this forum (such as the single cell conjugation linked above)
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by ICANT, posted 03-27-2007 2:23 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by ICANT, posted 03-28-2007 1:46 AM RAZD has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 107 of 109 (391922)
03-28-2007 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by RAZD
03-27-2007 10:19 PM


Re: email reply for ICANT
We can compare notes and see who is older (which is no barrier to learning) and see where my knowledge is ignorant compared to yours.
I am 67 years old married to the same woman for 50 years come June 3rd. I have a Bible Language Diploma from Florida Baptist College.
I have been studying the Bible for 42 years and learn something every day. I pastor a small Missionary Baptist Church. These things should point you to where I am coming from. I just want to learn all that I can so I can be the best that I can be.
RAZD writes:
Whether there was a single original cell or not is mute at this point -- the evidence cannot tell us this answer, so the best answer is "we don't know"
There is about a billion years from the formation of the earth and the first evidence of life noted above. Where did it come from is a question we don't know - and likely can't know - the answer to due to the problem of destruction of the evidence. What caused it is also anyone's guess at this point - we don't have any evidence of how if formed so it is not possible to define the causes (with evidence).
I want to thank you for being completely honest with me as I was expecting a song and dance. So much for my judgement of character from just reading other posts.
But you have only confirmed what I have believed since I was 12 years old.
I believe that species change over time for many different reasons.
I began to work in the field when I was 7 years old so I was introduced to many things with the animals at a very early age and I observed change.
I was really amused at a pair of Tennessee walking horses we had. A mare and a stallion, He would let her pull her share of the plow until about 3 in the evening then he would pull the heavy weight the rest of the day. All she had to do was keep the trace chains tight.
I gather you live and breath evolution from the posts I read especially the Great Debate. I also believe you have a lot of good qualities that I saw in the articles I read on your site.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by RAZD, posted 03-27-2007 10:19 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by RAZD, posted 03-28-2007 1:22 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 108 of 109 (391926)
03-28-2007 2:10 AM


Meaningful subtitles would be nice
At a glance, there seems to be a good conversation happening here. But the recent subtitle of "Re: email reply for ICANT" sure doesn't do anything to summarize the messages or to draw readers to this topic.
Want to reply to this message? Go to the "General discussion..." topic, link below.
Adminnemooseus

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 109 of 109 (391996)
03-28-2007 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by ICANT
03-28-2007 1:46 AM


................. (subtitle changed for Adminnemooseus)
I am 67 years old married to the same woman for 50 years come June 3rd. I have a Bible Language Diploma from Florida Baptist College.
I'm 60 (just) married second time for 25 years come April. I have 3 degrees, one a Masters that with a little more classes would have included a minor in microbiology. My brothers also have science degrees, one in astronomy and one in oceanography. My interests are eclectic with a strong interest in anthropology and archeology.
I just want to learn all that I can so I can be the best that I can be.
Learning never ends eh?
I want to thank you for being completely honest with me as I was expecting a song and dance. So much for my judgement of character from just reading other posts.
I think the case for evolution is strong enough that one does not need to overstate the evidence. There are things we know and things we think we know and things we hope are true.
I believe that species change over time for many different reasons.
And that is all that evolution really requires. To me the real debate on creation vs evolution is not whether evolution occurs, but whether there has been enough time for all the diversity we see to have evolved. I believe there is, and that the evidence for an old earth is extensive and persuasive. It was geologists before Darwin that were finding evidence of old age: Lyell was one that had an influence on Darwin's recognition that with long time the small changes could add up to the diversity we see.
Charles Lyell - Wikipedia
The debate really is how far back the common ancestors go, not that evolution has occurred since then.
I think the evidence for an old earth is pretty overwhelming, and that any argument for a young earth is similar to the arguments for a flat earth or a geocentric universe: falsified by the evidence that contradicts it. See Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Version 1 No 3 (formerly Part III) age correlations 1.3 for more on this issue.
Perhaps there was only ever one "kind" of life on earth. We don't know eh?
I gather you live and breath evolution from the posts I read especially the Great Debate. I also believe you have a lot of good qualities that I saw in the articles I read on your site.
Thanks. My dad taught Zoology at U.Mich and ecology at Harvard (and knew Gould). My mom was a child psychologist (why I am so normal).
Enjoy

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by ICANT, posted 03-28-2007 1:46 AM ICANT has not replied

  
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