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Author Topic:   Does the speed of light allow new earth creationism
IDontKnow
Junior Member (Idle past 2081 days)
Posts: 1
Joined: 11-11-2011


(3)
Message 1 of 35 (640715)
11-11-2011 8:09 PM


I was just outside with my telescope looking at the stars and a question popped up in my head.

- New earth creationists believe the earth, heavens and all life on earth were created between 5 700 and 10 000 years ago.

- Light travels at 299 792 458 meter/second or 186 282 mile/second
- So the distance of 1 lightyear is just under 10 trillion kilometers or 6 trillion miles.

If the earth and all the stars and galaxies were created 10 000 years ago, the max distance light could have traveled is 10 000 lightyears.

But the problem is that even the closest galaxy (Andromeda) is estemated to be between 2,4 and 2,9 MILLION lightyear away from earth. Even our own Milkyway galaxy is about 100 000 lightyear in diameter.

So it takes the light from the andromeda galaxy 2,4 million years to travel from there to here.

Thus 10 000 years isn't long enough for the light to travel that distance.

So the actual question:

How come that we can see all the other galaxies and stars in the nightsky (with or without a telescope)?

Shouldnt (by New Earth Creationism) we only be able to see the stars in a 10 000 lightyear orb around the earth?

Why do i see the stars beyond this distance?

Best regards


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Message 2 of 35 (640717)
11-12-2011 7:29 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Does the speed of light allow new earth creationism thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Dr Adequate
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(3)
Message 3 of 35 (640718)
11-12-2011 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by IDontKnow
11-11-2011 8:09 PM


Well, I've seen three excuses.

(1) God created the light in transit. This means, of course, that when you see (for example) a supernova more than a few thousand lightyears away, you're watching something that hasn't actually happened, and the universe is literally one giant fake.

(2) The light ran most of the way, but then slowed down, because ... er ... look, a bunny! This would break a few laws of physics, but creationists don't really like the laws of physics anyway, look at their longstanding grudge against thermodynamics.

(3) The stars aren't really that far away. Of course, if you compressed all the galaxies we can see into a sphere only 6000 lightyears in radius we'd all be dead, but this is a mere detail.

It is of course possible to combine either of the first two with the third in a sort of belt-and-braces approach to reality denial.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


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frako
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(1)
Message 4 of 35 (640719)
11-12-2011 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by IDontKnow
11-11-2011 8:09 PM


Once you believe a magic man created the world in 7 days with all the animals and plants and stuff, there is not much one can point to that would convince you otherwise.

Light takes that long to travel to earth from the nearest galaxy well that shows you how powerful god really is he made the light in transit lets see one of you make light in transit.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

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Phat
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Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 5 of 35 (640720)
11-12-2011 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by IDontKnow
11-11-2011 8:09 PM


The Light Went On In My Head
Even if we assume for the sake of argument that the earth was 10,000 years old (which I'm fairly convinced it isn't) The light from the distant galaxies would have still been heading this way.

Biblical Creationism is always a topic that is an affront to science.

I have no problem with applying logic, reason, and reality to the things we can see and test. I also do not see why its an insult to my or anyone else s faith in so doing. Lets go beyond young earth creationism. Lets discuss creation in the context of the universe.

Cant we just assume, in a faith based metaphor and/or symbol, that the Big Bang occurred when God said "Let there be light?"

add by edit: I just read a few of the posts at the other thread, now being summarized. Rahvin had an excellent point here. Keeping in mind that we are in a Science Forum rather than a Faith/Belief one, there is not much more to be said in regards to this topic than what Rahvin eloquently pointed out in my link.

Edited by Phat, : added link


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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 466 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 6 of 35 (640721)
11-12-2011 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by IDontKnow
11-11-2011 8:09 PM


Why do i see the stars beyond this distance?

You don't. The math and science are wrong when they conflict with the bible.


"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 466 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 7 of 35 (640722)
11-12-2011 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
11-12-2011 9:21 AM


Re: The Light Went On In My Head
Cant we just assume, in a faith based metaphor and/or symbol, that the Big Bang occurred when God said "Let there be light?"

You're free to do so if it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling. But it does nothing for anyone who wants to actually learn.


"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

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Phat
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From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 8 of 35 (640723)
11-12-2011 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by hooah212002
11-12-2011 9:30 AM


Light wouldnt have far to travel
Assuming a singularity at one point, light would not have very far to travel.lots of things could happen at that exact moment of creation/expansion.

Philosophical speculation, however, takes us away from the science of the matter. All we have to work with is what we can test, quantify, and observe.

As far as God goes, assuming God to exist, and assuming that a relationship is possible, there are many more important things on the agenda than mere mathematics. Perhaps we should be asking ourselves if it is logical,reasonable, and realistic for a faith to question new earth creationism. Why limit a Creator to obey the rules He allegedly created? Would such a Creator, assuming He/She/It is relational, frown upon humans attempting to understand science? We were given a brain, after all. Moreover, should such a question not be in a philosophy/faith/belief forum?


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 Message 9 by hooah212002, posted 11-12-2011 9:43 AM Phat has responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 466 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 9 of 35 (640724)
11-12-2011 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
11-12-2011 9:41 AM


Re: Light wouldnt have far to travel
Phat, why do you keep talking about god? We are on the science side. No one gives a shit about god over here.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

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Phat
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Posts: 9908
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 10 of 35 (640725)
11-12-2011 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by hooah212002
11-12-2011 9:43 AM


The Science Of The Matter.
OK, OK...I'll shut up already! The dude brought up new earth creationism. All I have done is state that such a philosophical question carries creationists to a faith/belief philosophy forum and carries those of us who want to learn further into this as a science topic.

I was not sure precisely what I Dont Know wanted to know.

He does bring up an excellent question which cannot be scientifically challenged.

Besides, hooah, not all scientists are atheists.

Edited by Phat, : added


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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 466 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 11 of 35 (640726)
11-12-2011 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
11-12-2011 9:50 AM


Re: The Science Of The Matter.
He does bring up an excellent question which cannot be scientifically challenged.

Says you. Plenty of creationists/IDists beg to differ. If there weren't so many that did beg to differ, I don't think this website would exist.

(abe for your abe)

Besides, hooah, not all scientists are atheists.

So what? NO scientist is a creationist, so your objection is moot.

Edited by hooah212002, : wasn't weren't

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15963
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 12 of 35 (640727)
11-12-2011 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
11-12-2011 9:21 AM


Re: The Light Went On In My Head
Even if we assume for the sake of argument that the earth was 10,000 years old (which I'm fairly convinced it isn't) The light from the distant galaxies would have still been heading this way.

Yes, but it wouldn't have got here yet.


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jar
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Posts: 29472
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 13 of 35 (640728)
11-12-2011 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Dr Adequate
11-12-2011 10:06 AM


Re: The Light Went On In My Head
The really funny part is that those who profess a young earth creationism seldom deal with the details, like the fact that if it were true, we would have direct and undeniable evidence in the millions of new lights that would appear in our skies every evening as the light from the stars that are 10,000 light years and one light day away pop into sight, followed the next night by the millions more stars that are 10,000 light years and two light days away and then the millions more stars that are 10,000 light years and three light days away and then ...

Somehow though, such direct evidence is never presented.

I wonder why?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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NoNukes
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Posts: 9998
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 14 of 35 (640733)
11-12-2011 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by IDontKnow
11-11-2011 8:09 PM


What brand of YEC are you asking about
YECs don't necessarily believe that the universe is less than 10,000 years old. Some postulate a young earth in an old universe. In that case, the size of the universe and a constant speed of light work out just fine.

As Dr. A points out, those who think the universe is just a few days older than the earth seldom believe that physicists are right about much of anything. I've heard more than one pastor claim that the Bible contains all of the science anyone needs to know.


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subbie
Member (Idle past 268 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 15 of 35 (640739)
11-12-2011 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by IDontKnow
11-11-2011 8:09 PM


The short answer
Since creationism has no relation whatsoever to real world evidence, no quantity or quality of real world evidence can have any effect on it in any way.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


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