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Author Topic:   Evolution/design of human teeth
frako
Member
Posts: 2682
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1 of 41 (640785)
11-12-2011 2:56 PM


Im writing this because i have a tooth infection and the dentist cant/wont do anything about it until i finish eating my antibiotics.

From an evolutionary standpoint our teeth design make no sense they are verry prone to infection, caries and loads of other stuff and i cant see myself as a caveman with a tooth infection wanting to go and hunt mammoths and father children so why has this problem not been rooted out by natural selection.

From a designer standpoint its even worse the designer should have known that this teeth design blows, why could he not give us a version of alligator teeth that have a spare tooth ready underneath the teeth they are using so if one falls out it gets replaced instantly and a noter spare is grown underneath.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Jon, posted 11-13-2011 11:45 AM frako has responded
 Message 5 by Coyote, posted 11-13-2011 12:41 PM frako has responded
 Message 10 by caffeine, posted 11-14-2011 4:26 AM frako has responded
 Message 19 by Portillo, posted 12-24-2011 11:08 PM frako has not yet responded

    
AdminModulous
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Message 2 of 41 (640787)
11-13-2011 7:09 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Evolution/design of human teeth thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 41 (640801)
11-13-2011 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by frako
11-12-2011 2:56 PM


From an evolutionary standpoint our teeth design make no sense they are verry prone to infection, caries and loads of other stuff and i cant see myself as a caveman with a tooth infection wanting to go and hunt mammoths and father children so why has this problem not been rooted out by natural selection.

How did you get your tooth infection?

What kinds of foods do you eat?

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by frako, posted 11-12-2011 2:56 PM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by frako, posted 11-13-2011 12:41 PM Jon has responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2682
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 4 of 41 (640806)
11-13-2011 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Jon
11-13-2011 11:45 AM


How did you get your tooth infection?

Dunno, it started with a little irritation in the afternoon and went to wanting to kill myself in the evening, then went to pull this tooth out you mofo dentist or il knock your teeth out she gave me antibiotics instead lol they started to work finally after i used half of them up and the swelling is down expecting it to be completely gone tomorrow. Im on Amoksiklav 875/125 if anyone knows anything about it.

What kinds of foods do you eat?

I eat virtually everything that is edible, there are a few exceptions like vampi something made from a cows stomach i think, tastes like if you would cut a few well used, unwashed towels in to small pieces and cook them. But mostly i like meat favored meat is a rabbits hind leg then comes horse meat, then pork, then all the other kinds of meat , i dont particularly like green salad but i will eat it if there is no other salad available, out of the veggy food i mostly eat reed beat, sweet corn, green beans, carrots stuff like that.

As for sweet stuff if i do eat a chocolate it hasto have rice, or raisins in it, as for cakes and the like i like the ones with fruit in them, the chocolate kind are too sweet for my taste.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Jon, posted 11-13-2011 11:45 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Jon, posted 11-13-2011 12:59 PM frako has responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5650
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 5 of 41 (640807)
11-13-2011 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by frako
11-12-2011 2:56 PM


On teeth
From an evolutionary standpoint our teeth design make no sense they are verry prone to infection, caries and loads of other stuff and i cant see myself as a caveman with a tooth infection wanting to go and hunt mammoths and father children...

With a proper diet we aren't as prone to tooth infections and carries.

Early humans, and humans in many areas of the globe, ate a diet with a lot more grit in it and a lot fewer sugars. This helped to "scrub" the teeth.

In analyzing maybe >1000 Native American skeletons, I've found that carries are extremely rare. The main problem I see in populations that have an extremely gritty diet is excessive tooth wear, often wearing into the pulp cavity faster than it can fill in (as it is designed to do). This leads to an infection in that tooth, often leaving a large cavity in the bone around the root and resulting in tooth loss.

And we couldn't have teeth like alligators as mammals just don't have that arrangement. We're pretty much stuck with what we have.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by frako, posted 11-12-2011 2:56 PM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by frako, posted 11-13-2011 12:50 PM Coyote has responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2682
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 6 of 41 (640808)
11-13-2011 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Coyote
11-13-2011 12:41 PM


Re: On teeth
So basically we are not evolved for our "modern" diet, and if our old diet provided us with no tooth problems better versions of teeth where not selected for.

So what exactly did the early humans eat if it sounds tasty i might change my diet


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Coyote, posted 11-13-2011 12:41 PM Coyote has responded

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 41 (640810)
11-13-2011 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by frako
11-13-2011 12:41 PM


I think if we combine this with what Coyote said in the message above, it becomes pretty clear that your tooth ache is not the fault of evolution.

Natural selection was working just fine until you had to go and be all unnatural on it.

Be glad you've got a decent health program. I actually have a cavity on my gum line and no insurance to get it fixed.

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by frako, posted 11-13-2011 12:41 PM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by frako, posted 11-13-2011 1:21 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5650
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 8 of 41 (640811)
11-13-2011 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by frako
11-13-2011 12:50 PM


Re: On teeth
So what exactly did the early humans eat if it sounds tasty i might change my diet...

Start with a lot of roots and things like acorns. Much early boiling was done in baskets with heated stones, and that could add grit. Acorns need to be ground (often in stone bowls), leached (often in sand), and that adds grit to the diet.

There are many other sources of wear on early teeth. Eating tough foods causes the teeth to move up and down slightly in their sockets, and that in turn adds a small amount of wear between teeth (interstitial wear). The teeth move forward slightly (mesial drift), creating enough room for the third molars to erupt cleanly.

So, for a primitive diet you need to get a digging stick and head for the hills.


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frako
Member
Posts: 2682
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 9 of 41 (640813)
11-13-2011 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Jon
11-13-2011 12:59 PM


Be glad you've got a decent health program. I actually have a cavity on my gum line and no insurance to get it fixed.

I only have basic mandatory insurance i dunno exactly how much it costs but its cheap it covers 90% of the cost on just about everything and 100% on stuff you need done. Dont have the extra insurance cause i so rarely go to any doctor i see no point to it. And the extra costs are freaking funny i had to pay 10% of the price of antibiotics 1 euro and 51 cents, and had to pay 10% of the checkup i had when i came to the dentist a whole 81 cents not even an euro.

Been thinking of getting the top notch insurance the benefits are Hilarius a one bed or 2 bead room with a tv and a phone, and the option of a family member staying there too, extra non medical care like extra or special foods and stuff like that, about 700 EUR per moth of not working do to your health problems and with what the state provides you get a grate sallery for just lying in bed doing nothing. it costs about 580 EUR per year that is 48 EUR per month lol. Iv been thinking of getting it and just start doing shit to me so i stay in the hospital all the time, common free food, free tv, free phone, and you get to lay about all day and get payed for it.

edit:

The doc was pissed at me for not having the extra insurance saying do you know how silly it is for me to go to the post office after work and wire 81 cents to the health department i dont want to to do that so get your extra insurance in order.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

This message is a reply to:
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caffeine
Member
Posts: 1252
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 10 of 41 (640895)
11-14-2011 4:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by frako
11-12-2011 2:56 PM


From a designer standpoint its even worse the designer should have known that this teeth design blows, why could he not give us a version of alligator teeth that have a spare tooth ready underneath the teeth they are using so if one falls out it gets replaced instantly and a noter spare is grown underneath.

Observe the dull monotony of an alligator's teeth:

compared with the wondrous diversity going on in your own mouth!

Alligator teeth don't do that much. They grab on to their prey and grip it tight, then they just swallow the whole thing, perhaps after suffocating it. Your teeth, however, are designed for the complex task of processing a variety of foods to match your varied diet. Not only do they come in different shapes and sizes, but you have the necesary jaw machinery for chewing and grinding. I'd like to see an alligator do that.

Complex dentition comes at the price of not being continuously replaceable, but it definitely has it benefits.

Edited by caffeine, : Something went horribly wrong


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by frako, posted 11-12-2011 2:56 PM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2682
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 11 of 41 (640896)
11-14-2011 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by caffeine
11-14-2011 4:26 AM


Complex dentition comes at the price of not being continuously replaceable, but it definitely has it benefits.

Sure but since you argued for the designer why dint the designer make our teeth out of aluminum or something similar that does not go bad as our calcium made teeth. Did he not know that our teeth will cause us problems in the modern era or does he just like to see us in pain?


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by caffeine, posted 11-14-2011 4:26 AM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
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caffeine
Member
Posts: 1252
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 12 of 41 (640898)
11-14-2011 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by frako
11-14-2011 5:37 AM


Sure but since you argued for the designer why dint the designer make our teeth out of aluminum or something similar that does not go bad as our calcium made teeth. Did he not know that our teeth will cause us problems in the modern era or does he just like to see us in pain?

I wasn't arguing for a designer. I was saying that our teeth aren't replaceable because mammals evolved specialised, heterodont teeth instead.

Now that I think about it, though, why should this be the case? I understand that we couldn't have teeth that move forwards or backwards in the mouth as old ones are worn away and new ones grow to replace them, since this would mess up the configuration of our teeth. I just read a little on crocodiles, however, and this isn't how they do it. Their teeth are in fixed sockets, and new ones grow beneath the old ones. Why couldn't we have new molars growing under our molars and new canines growing under our canines?


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 Message 13 by frako, posted 11-14-2011 6:04 AM caffeine has responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2682
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 13 of 41 (640899)
11-14-2011 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by caffeine
11-14-2011 5:55 AM


Their teeth are in fixed sockets, and new ones grow beneath the old ones. Why couldn't we have new molars growing under our molars and new canines growing under our canines?

That is what i was asking from a designers point of view we had a poor designer but from evolutions point of view it makes sense since we had no problems with our old diet there was no selective pressure to modify our teeth.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by caffeine, posted 11-14-2011 5:55 AM caffeine has responded

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 Message 14 by caffeine, posted 11-14-2011 6:17 AM frako has responded

    
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1252
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 14 of 41 (640901)
11-14-2011 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by frako
11-14-2011 6:04 AM


That is what i was asking from a designers point of view we had a poor designer but from evolutions point of view it makes sense since we had no problems with our old diet there was no selective pressure to modify our teeth.

Well, I wouldn't say no problems. You can still damage teeth, and it would presumably be advantageous to be able to undo the damage. In human societies the selection pressure may be small because we can cook food and the famiy can help to care for the guy with broken teeth, but we're talking about an evolutionary change that happened deep in history.

Why evolve teeth that are only replaced once. Is there a cost in replacing them throughout life that mammals avoid?


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 Message 13 by frako, posted 11-14-2011 6:04 AM frako has responded

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frako
Member
Posts: 2682
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 15 of 41 (640907)
11-14-2011 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by caffeine
11-14-2011 6:17 AM


Is there a cost in replacing them throughout life that mammals avoid?

I think life span played a role in mammal evolution of teeth human lifespans where about 30 years in that time even if you damaged a few teeth you could still survive and eat, and since they did not rot as much as they do now as seen in the sculls provided above there was probably no need to select for super teeth that replace themselves every time one gets damaged. In a few decades if religion looses its grasp on what is right and wrong about genetic engineering i think it would be a grate idea to provide all children with super teeth and of course any other benefits like no genetic desieses and the like.

A crocodile probably on average looses more teeth in a year then we do in 10 so for him its a very good trait to replace them fast and efficient and constantly.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

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 Message 14 by caffeine, posted 11-14-2011 6:17 AM caffeine has not yet responded

    
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