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Author Topic:   Where did the water come from and where did it go?
Trixie
Member (Idle past 1021 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 256 of 300 (646540)
01-05-2012 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by foreveryoung
01-04-2012 7:38 PM


Re: Miles of rock
9 there went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

11 ¶ In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 2 Pet. 3.6

12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

KJV Genesis 7

Where in all of that does it say that the "gates" of Heaven were opened for 150 days?

Noah went into the ark as the floodwaters were rising, but a week before the rain started. If the "rain" refers to bombardment, where did the water come from to initiate the flood? I think you're really stretching things to claim that "rain" which helped cause a global flood wasn't water, but a whole heap of space rocks.


This message is a reply to:
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Trixie
Member (Idle past 1021 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 257 of 300 (646541)
01-05-2012 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by edge
01-04-2012 9:09 PM


Re: Miles of rock
No, edge, you're just being silly! He's describing how the bombardment opened the subterranean chambers and let the water out

You're getting confused with ICANT's model which has a bombardment forming the chambers.

Do keep up!


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JonF
Member
Posts: 3404
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 258 of 300 (646573)
01-05-2012 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by foreveryoung
01-04-2012 7:38 PM


Re: Miles of rock
There is no solid boulder around today that has been dated later than 3.9 billion years ago

Nope. 4.0-4.03 billion years: Priscoan (4.00±4.03 Ga) orthogneisses from northwestern Canada. And, 4.28 billion years: Neodymium-142 Evidence for Hadean Mafic Crust (full text requires free registration).


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edge
Member
Posts: 3711
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 259 of 300 (646716)
01-06-2012 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Trixie
01-05-2012 4:43 AM


Re: Miles of rock
No, edge, you're just being silly! He's describing how the bombardment opened the subterranean chambers and let the water out

You're getting confused with ICANT's model which has a bombardment forming the chambers.

Do keep up!


This is more work than doing real science...
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Perdition
Member (Idle past 553 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 260 of 300 (646721)
01-06-2012 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by edge
01-06-2012 10:22 AM


Re: Miles of rock
This is more work than doing real science...

That's because in science, unsupported ideas get dropped. For Creationists, they just get recycled...and everyone has their own ideas to recycle.


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Coyote
Member
Posts: 5529
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 261 of 300 (648172)
01-13-2012 3:11 PM


More fuel for the fire
The Draining Floodwaters: Geologic Evidence Reflects the Genesis Text

http://www.icr.org/article/6539/

Exerpt:

Of course, recognizing that old-earth scenarios are hopelessly flawed, we would certainly disagree with the chart’s long time span of 600 million years, preferring instead to interpret the whole as the record of the great Flood of Noah’s day. Moving upward, we see the bottom as the early Flood period, then the mid-Flood, the waning stages of the Flood, and the post-Flood time at the top. The Genesis 8:3 grounding occurred during the later Zuni, when floodwaters were at their maximum and then began to wane. Within the rising and maintaining Flood portions of the chart is where geologists have seen these six (maybe subdivided into more) megasequences. During the final drainage, the waters came and went with greater frequency.

So all they have to do to make this silly scenario fit is to squeeze 600 million years into less than 1 year.

But hey, that's no problem for creation "science!"

What a joke!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Replies to this message:
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DavidOH
Junior Member (Idle past 1770 days)
Posts: 11
From: Cincinnati, OH, USA
Joined: 09-12-2008


Message 262 of 300 (648546)
01-16-2012 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Coyote
01-13-2012 3:11 PM


Re: More fuel for the fire
I'm trying to work out the possilbe mechanism for the sea level changes.

I assume conventional geology would involve such mechanisms as changes in ice sheets, glaciers, etc. over the course of centuries.

The ICR proposal is daunting. Since the changes are so fast, we can't be talking about freezing that much water that fast. The only mechanism I can think of for the ICR concept is for the continents bobbing up & down like a bunch of bath toys.

Look at the Tejas Megasequence. Drop the water level (raise continents) 450 m in a couple days, raise water 150 m, drop water 50 m, raise water 200 m, drop 200 m, raise 100 m all in 20 days by very rough scaling of figure.

This is panning for gold on a planetary scale. All loose material on the continents below the peak of 200m above present sea level would be washed into the ocean basins to settle out. The continents would be covered by silts & clays at best, bed rock is more likely.


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jrchamblee
Junior Member (Idle past 1678 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 02-08-2012


Message 263 of 300 (652453)
02-13-2012 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Trixie
11-29-2011 5:10 PM


Maybe the fountains mean God brought it from outer space as he is powerful enough to do that, an then dry it up.sent it back to space.
This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 15375
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 264 of 300 (652461)
02-13-2012 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by jrchamblee
02-13-2012 7:02 PM


We're well aware that God can do anything. Do you have any evidence that he actually did what you think he did?

--Percy


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jar
Member
Posts: 28110
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 265 of 300 (652462)
02-13-2012 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by jrchamblee
02-13-2012 7:02 PM


Is there something in the text to suggest that "fountains of the deep" would refer to icebergs from space?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Coyote
Member
Posts: 5529
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.8


(6)
Message 266 of 300 (652466)
02-13-2012 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by jrchamblee
02-13-2012 7:02 PM


What ifs
Maybe the fountains mean God brought it from outer space as he is powerful enough to do that, an then dry it up.sent it back to space.

Your reply is what I call a "What if?"

When trying to find an explanation for some phenomenon or claim, and when backed into a corner, creationists usually resort to "What ifs."

That means they have no idea how something claimed in the bible or in dogma was done but they believe it anyway, so they just make something up. It doesn't matter how silly, outlandish, or impossible it may be--that's not the point. The point is they have to have something to explain that particular phenomenon or claim. That makes everything OK in their minds.

On being shown that their "What if" is contrary to the evidence, they promptly come up with another "What if." It doesn't even matter if it contradicts the previous "What if!" And it certainly doesn't matter if it contradicts the "What ifs" other creationists are making up.

After several of these "What ifs" are refuted a creationist is most likely to retreat to the first one again; and around and around we go.

Your post is a classic example of the genre.

And it is also a classic example of Heinlein's observation that "Belief gets in the way of learning."


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 4295
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 267 of 300 (652499)
02-14-2012 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Coyote
02-13-2012 8:13 PM


Re: What ifs
Coyote writes:

Your reply is what I call a "What if?"

This is because creationist's beliefs did not arise from careful consideration and logical thought, they came from indoctrination and/or personal revelation.

The belief exists, so whatever is written in the book is true. If the book is true then whatever impossible myth under discussion must have come about some way. It doesn't matter much how, because it's true and any explanation is fine - even the daftest.

It's an alien way of working things out to me and I'm baffled by the self delusion and often simple dishonesty of it and often wonder how people who think like this deal with life. I think the thought processes of a fundie deserves a thread of its own.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 4295
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 268 of 300 (662374)
05-15-2012 6:04 AM


This put things in perspective a little

All the world's water

When you’re trudging through the pouring rain to the office, it seems like the Earth possesses an infinite amount of water, a not-insignificant amount of which is dripping down your collar. But when you see an image like this one, produced by the USGS, it hammers home the reality of the situation: the water’s all spread out in a very thin layer, like a millimeter of frosting on a cake. If you gathered all the world’s water—from oceans, lakes, groundwater, water vapor, everything—into a sphere, it would have a diameter of 860 miles. That’s the distance between Salt Lake City and Topeka, Kansas.

That’s still a fairly big sphere, when you think about it: that same water spread out in an even layer across the United States would leave us under a 90-mile-deep lake. But it isn’t nearly as big as you might expect, looking at our blue marble in photos from space or dipping your toes in the Atlantic. To boot, very little of that water—less than 4%—is freshwater, and the vast majority of that is locked up in glaciers and ice caps. We’ve got just a tiny fraction of that sphere at our disposal; it behooves us to use it wisely.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/...is-all-the-worlds-water


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9164
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 269 of 300 (662449)
05-15-2012 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Tangle
02-14-2012 8:17 AM


Re: What ifs
It's an alien way of working things out to me and I'm baffled by the self delusion and often simple dishonesty of it and often wonder how people who think like this deal with life.

I don't find the question of how fundies deal with life all that puzzling. For most fundies, having goofy ideas about science has few negative consequences and no immediate ones. You don't have to be right about anything scientific to have your GPS, television, or smoke detector function just fine. So what difference does it make if your impression regarding how those things work is different from that of a physicist. It's not like anybody is going to ask you to fix any of that stuff if it breaks.

Okay, so you aren't going to make good decisions about global climate change. Those consequences are a ways off, and in the short run, maybe global warming is beneficial.

In fact it is the physicist who has knowledge that makes it difficult to accept fundie beliefs who is most likely to find him/herself in awkward social situations.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9164
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 270 of 300 (662450)
05-15-2012 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Tangle
05-15-2012 6:04 AM


Maybe, I'm paranoid, but that blue bubble sure looks like a lot of water to me? Perhaps it's from hearing water covers 3/4 of the earth's surface, that's giving me the creepies, but I don't find the picture the least bit comforting. It is also the case that the variation in elevation around the globe is very tiny. That suggests that small changes in the volume of water can result in relatively large changes in the amount of land that is submerged.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


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