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Author Topic:   Born that way.
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 16 of 45 (642935)
12-02-2011 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by onifre
11-30-2011 11:11 PM


Actually, it is leviticus, and specifically is using terminology that is talking about male anal penetration. Some commentary indicates that at least some rabbi's feel this is referring to the 'humiliation rape' that had been done (I personally am skeptical of that claim).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by onifre, posted 11-30-2011 11:11 PM onifre has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


(1)
Message 17 of 45 (642936)
12-02-2011 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Artemis Entreri
12-01-2011 3:29 PM


I'm no bible expert, but I just asked a friend of mine who is a pastor and has been studying the bible for some 30 years. He has also spent the last 30 years actively supporting gay rights. He assured me that any attempt at interpreting the bible to get anything that says jesus had no problems with the gheys is futile. It's all up to personal interpretation. Here's an example of what I mean.
quote:
I see no reason why if Jesus was against men taking a male-wife, that he did not speak out against it.
  —AE
There are plenty of bible thumpers out there who have interpreted the bible the opposite of what you've just said. Would you like me to quote some?
The point is all I see in the OP's intent is rationalization of what you want to believe. The very same passages you want to bring up for your own purpose can also be interpreted to throw the gheys into jail. Your way of thought has absolutely no benefit at all to the fight for equality.
Anyway, continue on if you want to keep rationalizing your beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Artemis Entreri, posted 12-01-2011 3:29 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Artemis Entreri, posted 12-05-2011 7:22 AM Taz has replied

  
Son
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 18 of 45 (642960)
12-03-2011 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Taz
12-02-2011 6:14 PM


Taz writes:
So, let's throw the gays into prison.
How would that make society work better? I don't see how you could conclude this sentence from what I wrote. The prison reference was in regard to your sociopaths exemple.
What I meant is that (from a christian perspective) we should make the best society possible for the greatest number of people possible in a purely utilitarian way and reserve the moral side of judgement to God. From this perspective, the prisons are not there to "punish" but are a tool to better society by temporaly isolating harmful elements of society and rehabilitate them.

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 Message 15 by Taz, posted 12-02-2011 6:14 PM Taz has replied

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 Message 20 by Taz, posted 12-03-2011 4:14 PM Son has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 45 (642964)
12-03-2011 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by onifre
11-30-2011 11:11 PM


And if I'm not mistaken, Jesus says to continue to obey all of his Father's laws.
I get your point, but it just isn't so clear that Jesus would have thought obeying the laws meant treating your neighbors and family members like pariahs. There are plenty of examples of him acting in exactly the opposite. I understand that you are well aware of that.
Jesus also lambasted the Pharisees for straining out gnats (enforcing laws for their own aggrandization) while swallowing camels (i.e. justice, mercy and faithfulness).
Speaking of rabid southerners, after a seven year absence I'd completely forgotten how zealous North Carolina natives could be about persecuting their own children. It's like a really bad X-men episode. Next up on the agenda here is a constitutional amendment banning even civil unions.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 20 of 45 (642987)
12-03-2011 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Son
12-03-2011 3:48 AM


Yes, and since homosexuals spread disease and steer society's moral outlook southward, we'd be doing society a favor by throwing them in prison.
How is homosexuality not harmful to society? If every person was a homosexual, the human race would be extinct in a generation.
You can look this up if you want. A lot of countries are facing a potential population deficit in the near future. Countries like Italy, Britain, USA, Australia, etc. are having birthrates lower than what's needed to replace the current population. The only countries that are not having this problem are countries that persecute homosexuals. Obviously, there's a connection here.

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 Message 18 by Son, posted 12-03-2011 3:48 AM Son has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by ramoss, posted 12-04-2011 12:54 PM Taz has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


(1)
Message 21 of 45 (642989)
12-03-2011 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Artemis Entreri
11-30-2011 2:06 PM


The fact is, anyone can see the purpose of sex, in light of the bible, that only marriage between a man and woman is permissable in God's eyes. The purpose is to create new life. The bible agrees in that we see the purpose of biology in sex. Reality.
So the part of your post I disagree with is the strawman that a Christian condemns gay people, or dissasociates himself with the possibility of gay-birth.
Even if gay-birth is true, that would not mean that God created the person gay any more than He created a deformed person on purpose. It would just be a matter of genetic decay in a fallen world, caused by man's sin. (The fallen world caused by man's sin).
The argument from Gay, is not about morals, it is about the heart's desire. Does God think it is okay to have homosexual sex because it is tough not to if you are born gay? No. The scriptures tell us that same-sex, sex is sin.
I can't get around that without preaching a sugar-coated gospel. There is a misconception that Christians are out to condemn gays. It's just ignorance, it is much easier and comfortable to tag the Christian as, "homophobe". It's so easy to lie, especially when you do not have the Holy Spirit and are not therefore invested in the truth.
There are Christians I know and have heard of, that are gay, believe they are born gay, and abstain. So you have a good point there.
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Artemis Entreri, posted 11-30-2011 2:06 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Coyote, posted 12-03-2011 5:39 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 24 by ramoss, posted 12-04-2011 1:00 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 22 of 45 (642993)
12-03-2011 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by mike the wiz
12-03-2011 4:42 PM


It would just be a matter of genetic decay in a fallen world, caused by man's sin. (The fallen world caused by man's sin).
This is absolute nonsense without any scientific validity.
It is certainly nothing to base a theory on.
But, as long as we're dispensing opinions, it is my opinion that the concept of "original sin" is the most evil idea ever to emerge from the fevered brains of shamans. It's not just self-loathing, but self-loathing as a species! That's pure and unadulterated evil.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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 Message 21 by mike the wiz, posted 12-03-2011 4:42 PM mike the wiz has not replied

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 23 of 45 (643057)
12-04-2011 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Taz
12-03-2011 4:14 PM


Of course, the ones that do not have that issue are the ones that have extremely high birth rates, extremely high infant mortality rates, low education, and are likely to blow up due to population pressures.
Other places that are having population problems where there is not the toleration of homosexuals is Russia.
It are places that women go to work to maintain a higher standard of living, and therefore are delaying getting into the motherhood business.
As far as I can see, the world population could decrease by 75%, and there wouldn't be any worries when it comes to extinction, but the less strain on the non-renewable resources, and the over utilized renewable resources would be much less.

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 Message 20 by Taz, posted 12-03-2011 4:14 PM Taz has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


(1)
Message 24 of 45 (643058)
12-04-2011 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by mike the wiz
12-03-2011 4:42 PM


If God hates homosexuals so much, why did he make so many of them
And frankly, sex is used for more than reproduction. It is used for social bonding too.
I personally am not going to get married, not going to have kids, but I certainly like sex... .. preferable with women who no longer are able to reproduce...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by mike the wiz, posted 12-03-2011 4:42 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 25 of 45 (643059)
12-04-2011 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Coyote
12-03-2011 5:39 PM


Don't you know that Original Sin is a disease.
But wait.. Christianity HAS A CURE. It is known a 'belief in Jesus, and a 10 % tithe to the church', and you too can not have to worry about original sin.

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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 26 of 45 (643119)
12-05-2011 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Taz
12-02-2011 6:21 PM


doy!
and in my posts I have stated that this is my personal interpretation, and here is the passages and reasons for it.
the bible is all personal interpretation, period.
I just wonder why we listen to the interpretation from the same folks who used to bible to justify slavery and non-interracial marriage (social conservatives), they have been consistently wrong for a long long time.
The point is all I see in the OP's intent is rationalization of what you want to believe. The very same passages you want to bring up for your own purpose can also be interpreted to throw the gheys into jail. Your way of thought has absolutely no benefit at all to the fight for equality.
let me see it? the same passages? you seem to think you can talk the talk, but all I see here is just talk, bring it or STFU.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Taz, posted 12-02-2011 6:21 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Taz, posted 12-26-2011 10:20 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 27 of 45 (645420)
12-26-2011 10:07 PM


An unlikely public figure died today. At least now he is free from the morally superior christians...
Quiet but determined, John Lawrence is remembered as a hero in the ... - CultureMap Houston
Too bad he ruined the morally superior christians' attempt to moralize society.

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 28 of 45 (645425)
12-26-2011 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Artemis Entreri
12-05-2011 7:22 AM


Don't take my word for it. Talk to people like rush limbaugh, pat robertson, etc. I'd say they are a little bit more learned than you.
By the way, did you know that anti-sodomy laws were finally declared unconstitutional in 2003 by the Supreme court? Gee, I wonder who put those laws into the books in the first place. Oh, wait, let me guess, they're weren't true christians, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Artemis Entreri, posted 12-05-2011 7:22 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Artemis Entreri, posted 12-28-2011 4:10 PM Taz has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 29 of 45 (645622)
12-28-2011 2:04 PM


If you believe in such things, the bible is pretty clear about it:
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Lev.20:13
As for 'Being born that way', given that many if not most animal species have individuals that display homosexual behaviour, it's fairly clear that it's a natural biological phenomenon.
I have to say I laugh out loud at the religious zealots that say it's a lifestyle choice. I tell them to go look at a gay porn site and see whether it does anything for them. There's a tricky little problem to overcome if you're a bloke - you can't hide your unexcitement no matter how cool you think it would be to be gay.

Life, don't talk to me about life.

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-28-2011 2:27 PM Tangle has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 45 (645624)
12-28-2011 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Tangle
12-28-2011 2:04 PM


If you believe in such things, the bible is pretty clear about it:
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Lev.20:13
Few things:
  • Leviticus is a list of rules for the Levites, with the part you're drawing from being the Holiness Code, so I don't think it really applies to us today
  • That just some old jewish stuff that Jesus came to rid us of anyways
  • This threaed is concerned with the NT and what Jesus taught
I have to say I laugh out loud at the religious zealots that say it's a lifestyle choice.
I think part of that has to do with them perceiving "being gay" as more than just being attracted to the same sex. I sorta get it in that the gays I know can turn on/off the whole limp wrist and talking with a lisp thing like the flip of a switch, so the whole "gay demeanor" thing is what I think is being referred to as a lifestyle choice. But I dunno, religious zealots aren't really all that consistant nor make much sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2011 2:04 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2011 3:11 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
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