Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 115 (8733 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 03-23-2017 2:17 AM
413 online now:
Dawn Bertot, Dr Adequate, GDR, PaulK, Pressie (5 members, 408 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: timtak
Upcoming Birthdays: OnlyCurious
Post Volume:
Total: 801,831 Year: 6,437/21,208 Month: 2,198/2,634 Week: 386/572 Day: 3/99 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
23456
...
25NextFF
Author Topic:   Evidence to expect given a designer
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4545
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 1 of 373 (644152)
12-05-2011 3:24 PM


If we propose intelligent design, we have to ask what we should expect to see. We should get an induction of amazing designs, not just average, as might be expected from weak evolution.

Usually we see petty examples from Evolutionists, that are usually questionable. For example, nipples in men. I.e. Problems that aren't really problems, or silly little problems with eyes, to distract us from the rather large evidence that eyes are remarkable.

So here is the beginning of an induction we should expect to see. Certainly bio-mimicry should not be common place given the designer's ineptitude, but that is not the case;

*Human autonomy
---The fingers and autonomy leading to incredibly precise manoevres in the human hand, is enabled by an incredibly complex set of contingencies.
" The lumbrical muscle serves two main functions—extending and retracting the finger in coordination with the other muscles.
These muscles must work closely together. The complexity of moving three finger bones in sync is hard to grasp. Imagine laying three steel bars on the ground end-to-end, and then tying the bars together with a series of wire harnesses. Pulling any one wire will affect the other wires. Now try moving all three bars together, side-to-side and up-and-down at the same time. You’ll quickly see how hard it is to keep everything in alignment.
Yet our index finger has no such problem. As the lumbrical muscle contracts, it reduces the tension on the long flexor tendon, while the lumbrical muscle simultaneously pulls on a ligament at the side of the finger, extending the finger ". (http://www.answersingenesis.org/...les/am/v5/n3/index-finger)

* Elephants. An elephant's ears, can cool down elephants in a short time, just by flapping their ears they can reduce their temperature. It 's trunk, amazing smell. 100 thousand muscle units. It can lift a 500 pound log and yet take something from a child's hand, very delicately. And yet his head is heavy and porous to compensate for it's size.
They have big cushions on their feet to handle the weight. You would think an elephant would get stuck in the mud with it's great weight and yet his legs shrink in diameter enabling him to get out. Clever contingencies.

* Alligators.
" The alligator can do more than just swim fast; in many other ways, he is uniquely designed for life in the water. Located on the same plane, his eyes, nose, and ear slits allow him to float mostly submerged and still see, smell, and hear above water. Since alligators frequently hunt at night, their eyes are equipped with cat-like pupils to see well in the dark.
People often use ear plugs, nose plugs, and goggles when they swim, to keep water from going where it’s not supposed to, but alligators don’t have that problem. Their nose and ear slits are designed to close when they plunge into the water. And the nictitating membrane, a protective covering over the eye, allows alligators to keep their eyes open underwater. Imagine having your own built-in goggles! " (http://www.answersingenesis.org/.../am/v5/n2/sovereign-swamp)

* Shrimps' eyes.
"The shrimp’s eyes are actually similar in some respects to technology called quarter-wave plates, which are designed to convert light polarity in CD and DVD players, and some camera filters. However, quarter-wave plates only work well for one color of light. The eyes of the mantis shrimp, on the other hand, work well across a broad light spectrum, much broader than that of human-made devices. The researchers believe mantis shrimp use this special ability in hunting and communication. " (AIG)

* Trilobites' eyes.
"When I take students snorkeling and scuba diving, I have to warn them that organisms and objects underwater appear closer and larger than they really are (so that big, nearby shark is really smaller and farther away!). Some trilobites didn’t have that problem. They had double-lens systems that made the corrections for underwater vision, sort of “hand-crafted prescription face masks,” masterpieces of design. (AIG)

* Puffins.
Not only are they brilliant flyers, but also briliant swimmers, which shows us a designer killing two birds with one stone. Here two problems are met with one solution, it can be said without any doubt that this is brilliant design!

* Giraffes.
The giraffe has the problem of drowning it's brain in blood when it stoops down to drink, and fainting every time it returns it's head to full height. But these two problems aren't problems at all for giraffes. Again we see two problems met with one clever contingency. The giraffes' brain actually has a structure like a sponge, that absorbs the blood when it bends down to drink and slowly releases the blood when it returns to full height.

* Bilateral symmetry
The ladybird has a perfectly symmetrical dome-shell that tucks it's wings neatly underneathe the shell. Not only is this a compact and efficient design, but organisms such as this beatle are bilaterally symmetrical. You could cut them in half down the middle and have a symmetrical mirror image of the other half. This is brilliant aesthetically and for efficiency. If designs were thrown together then symmetry would surely not be relevant. For example, a ferrari is bilaterally symmetrical and aesthetically pleasing, because it is not thrown together, but thoughtfully designed. Usually "neat packaged" symmetrical designs are the best sort unless there is a requirement for asymmetry. And there is an order to the universe, in that things such as wings require symmetry and balance.

Flippers.

See the bumps on the front of a humpback whale’s flipper? [Picture available only in Creation magazine.] What sort of designer would design such a thing, rather than a smooth, sleek flipper?

Engineers and US Naval Academy scientists have inadvertently answered that question: an incredibly ingenious designer—one whom aircraft designers can learn much from!1

They used scale models of a flipper 56 cm (22 inches) long. One was smooth, and the other had the little bumps, called tubercles. In a wind tunnel, the smooth one behaved like a typical aeroplane wing. But the one with the tubercles had 8% better lift and an astounding 32% less drag. It also resisted stalling (drastically losing lift) at a 40% steeper wing angle.

If that could be applied to aeroplanes, the better lift would make takeoff and landing easier; the lower drag would mean less fuel would be wasted; and the better stall resistance would be a huge safety advantage. The researchers propose that the tubercle design would also greatly benefit propellers, helicopter rotors and ship rudders.2

So why does this bumpy structure work so much better? The tubercles at the front of the flipper break up the flow of fluid (liquid or gas), and force it into the fluted valleys in between. This generates vortices (eddies) that keep the flow attached to the top surface of the flipper. This increases lift and resists stalling.

-- http://creation.com/flighty-flippers

Sharks.

Shark species that can hurtle through the ocean at high speed—up to 80 km per hour (50 mph)1 —have a number of special features that allow them to do that, e.g., the tiny scales on the surface of their skin.

‘It’s like the difference between pushing a box over ball bearings instead of dragging it along the floor’—Dr Amy Lang, University of Alabama
Each scale is just 0.2 mm (0.008 inch) long and is made of tough enamel—if you touch shark skin it feels like rough sandpaper. You might at first think that a perfectly smooth surface would be better for speed but in fact it’s been known for some time that the scales actually reduce drag.2 And now researchers have discovered another special characteristic of shark skin. In light of evidence that some shark species may bristle their scales during fast swimming, engineers decided to see how lifting the scales on end affects water flow over the shark.

Using models of bristled shark skin in a water tunnel experiment, researchers from the University of Alabama’s Aerospace Engineering and Mechanics Department and their colleagues observed that at high speed, tiny vortices or whirlpools formed within the cavities between the scales.3 (The scales were raised at an angle of 90º to the surface of the skin.) The effect of these vortices was to form a kind of ‘buffer layer’ between the fast moving fluid and the skin’s surface, thus preventing a turbulent wake from forming behind the shark. In other words, reducing drag.

For me it's simple, the induction is endless, most of the "problems" can be put down as foggy thinking or genetics and disease leading to less efficiency. The fact is that this level of design should be expected if there is a designer.

(I'll let you put it where you want, you guys can bash it out, I personally won't argue facts).


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 12-05-2011 9:58 PM mike the wiz has responded
 Message 9 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-15-2011 6:16 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded
 Message 11 by Coragyps, posted 12-15-2011 7:24 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded
 Message 12 by nwr, posted 12-15-2011 8:14 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded
 Message 16 by Portillo, posted 12-16-2011 5:48 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded
 Message 96 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2011 9:50 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12389
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2 of 373 (644153)
12-05-2011 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mike the wiz
12-05-2011 3:24 PM


Hi Mike,

I see several problems with this proposal:

  • Somewhere north of 90% of the words are quotes from other websites, not your own words.

  • If the quotes were of evidence then I might not consider it a problem, but they're just someone else arguing for your point of view. I'd like to see evidence supporting the point of view, and I'd like to see arguments in your own words.

  • Qualities like beautiful, fast, amazing, etc., are subjective. What is beautiful, fast or amazing to one person is not for another. You need to offer some objective criteria and evidence.

If you decide you'd like to try a rewrite I'd be glad to give it another look.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mike the wiz, posted 12-05-2011 3:24 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 12-06-2011 11:47 AM Admin has responded

    
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4545
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 3 of 373 (644154)
12-06-2011 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
12-05-2011 9:58 PM


I think generally, you would be correct. But I think facts that are, for example, "amazing" usually serve as self-evident. On a personal level they might not amaze you. For example a magician's trick does not amaze or impress me, it bores me, but the thing of itself still has it's value.

For example, it is not an epithet to state that, that race car is amazingly FAST!.

When we see a hummingbird flying in slow motion, it is amazing. Or if we consider the contraflow lungs that make aviation possible, that is amazing design. It's not a claim it is a fact.

Evolutionists and creationists agree there is design, it's just that they dispute how that design came about. But rather I am saying, in a world without a designer, we would expect average design, glue and sticky-tape but in a designer-world we would expect to see amazing designs.

The question really, is, what is a good design?. If we show designs that are unquestionably brilliant, then it stands to reason that the person saying they are not good designs, has an agenda.

I don't need terms such as, "amazing" because that much is obvious. If a race car obviously goes amazingly fast, a person that hates race-cars might counter, "it is not fast or amazing" because to them it isn't. But objectively, designs are there and they present morphological contingencies to physical problems. Such as the shark example. The problem is drag, and how to reduce it. Are we going to say that this is not a good solution and therefore not a good design? Then that begs the question; what WOULD qualify a design?

In my opinion, evolutionists will not qualify what would make a good design unless they knew posteriori that such a design is not attainable.

i.e. Their agenda is to not accept anything that would qualify as a good design.

I say, qualify a good design, and accept reality, even if it does not favour your cause.

You say, "point of view". In a way you are right, it takes a point of view to appreciate how good something is. If you have a worldview that says that designs are put together, and not amazing, then you will ignore the amazing and pass it off as inexplicable.

I think there is an induction in nature, that shows that there are indeed amazing designs as we would expect to see. The evidence only requires observation and comprehension. The facts are there, but you can lead a horse to water and that won't mean it will drink.

There are problems for design=designer that I acknowledge but have not mentioned, such as the Problem of Evil and other factors, but to qualify a good design should be simple.

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 12-05-2011 9:58 PM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Admin, posted 12-09-2011 8:42 AM mike the wiz has responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12389
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 4 of 373 (644155)
12-09-2011 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by mike the wiz
12-06-2011 11:47 AM


Hi Mike,

I think all you need in your proposal is objective criteria for detecting design, or maybe you meant for detecting good design.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 12-06-2011 11:47 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by mike the wiz, posted 12-15-2011 1:23 PM Admin has responded

    
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4545
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 5 of 373 (644156)
12-15-2011 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Admin
12-09-2011 8:42 AM


It's a good point, I have it all written down but it is too long, but usually what makes a design, is how something is arranged, specifically. We can infer this from KNOWN designs.

For example, a wall isn't merely what it is made from, (cement and bricks), but it is how it is arranged that makes it a design.

The metal parts in a car, the carburetor, for example, is another good example of determining design.

We agree there is design (evo/creo,), it's how it got there.

For qualifying, "good" design, we would expect those designs to be used, by lesser designers.

Humans use bio-mimicry. If those designs in biology, they borrow from, where not good designs, then why would designers use them?

This shows us 2 things.

1. Human artificial designers "NEED" to borrow from biological designs.
2. If those biological designs were not good, why would there be bio-mimicry?

For these clear logical reasons, it is self-evidence that good design exists, as we would expect it to, given an all-wise designer.

The only reason to deny that examples of bio-mimicry are not good design, would be because you had a motivation that meant that you do not want good biological designs to exist.

I.e. Denial.

(More about, "arranging" matter, it should be noted that a different reading from the DNA code, will determine what is conctructed. We see it is how the biological matter is arranged that makes it what it is, just like with the brick wall. So a monkey and a man might be made of the same, "stuff", but it is how they are arranged/constructed, that makes them designed.)

It should be noted that I am claiming very specifically that these facts would be consistent with a wise-designer. Any other "inferences" you think I am making, well, those opinions were entirely invented by your own synapses. (Not you specifically, Percy, but the readers.)

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Admin, posted 12-09-2011 8:42 AM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Admin, posted 12-15-2011 5:38 PM mike the wiz has responded
 Message 8 by subbie, posted 12-15-2011 5:42 PM mike the wiz has responded
 Message 13 by DrJones*, posted 12-15-2011 8:54 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded
 Message 14 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-16-2011 12:27 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12389
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 6 of 373 (644157)
12-15-2011 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by mike the wiz
12-15-2011 1:23 PM


Boiling it down, you're making these arguments:

  • Design is recognized by how an object's components are arranged.

  • Good design is recognized by whether other designers copy it.

I ask participants to keep the focus on these arguments.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by mike the wiz, posted 12-15-2011 1:23 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by mike the wiz, posted 12-19-2011 4:41 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12389
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 7 of 373 (644159)
12-15-2011 5:38 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Evidence to expect given a designer thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
subbie
Member (Idle past 54 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


(3)
Message 8 of 373 (644160)
12-15-2011 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by mike the wiz
12-15-2011 1:23 PM


Is the arrangement of wires in this antenna designed or not?

How can you tell?


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by mike the wiz, posted 12-15-2011 1:23 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by mike the wiz, posted 01-03-2012 2:48 PM subbie has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15468
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 9 of 373 (644162)
12-15-2011 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mike the wiz
12-05-2011 3:24 PM


The fact is that this level of design should be expected if there is a designer.

The fact is that this level of adaptation should be expected if there was evolution.

So how can we tell the difference between the two hypotheses?

Well, we could ask:

* Are there the necessary conditions for evolution, i.e. reproduction with variation subject to selection? Yes there are.

* On the other hand, has anyone ever seen this supposed designer designing anything? No they haven't.

* Is there evidence that evolution has taken place? Yes there is. The fossils record, genetics, biogeography, etc.

* Turning to these supposed "designs", do organisms have the problems that we would expect to be produced by evolution but not by an intelligent designer? Yes they do.

* Are we done here? Yes we are ... so long as we're not religiously motivated to ignore the bleedin' obvious.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mike the wiz, posted 12-05-2011 3:24 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28422
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 10 of 373 (644164)
12-15-2011 6:48 PM


The one evidence needed
The one evidence needed is some evidence that the Designer exists. Until that is presented and examined, talk of Design is just silly.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5266
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 11 of 373 (644165)
12-15-2011 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mike the wiz
12-05-2011 3:24 PM


Some trilobites didn’t have that problem. They had double-lens systems that made the corrections for underwater vision....

I forget - where did trilobites live, again? On land, like scuba-ing students do??? Or, perhaps, under water??

Jeez, Mike! If that's the best AIG can do, they are worse than I remember them being!


"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mike the wiz, posted 12-05-2011 3:24 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

    
nwr
Member
Posts: 5504
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 12 of 373 (644167)
12-15-2011 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mike the wiz
12-05-2011 3:24 PM


mike the wiz writes:
If we propose intelligent design, we have to ask what we should expect to see.

Here's what I would expect to see:
  • when I look around in a field of natural growth, I would expect to see the plants neatly arranged in rows, much like they are in an orchard;
  • I would expect to see animals as mechanical artifacts of the designer, with no free will, all doing precisely what they were designed to do;
  • I would expect to see uniformly consistent weather patterns, about the same amount of rain each year - none of this alternation of periods of drought with periods of flooding.

I could go on. But I think you get the point. A designed world should be a very different place from the disorderly and haphazard world that we actually see.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mike the wiz, posted 12-05-2011 3:24 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1642
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004


Message 13 of 373 (644169)
12-15-2011 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by mike the wiz
12-15-2011 1:23 PM


1. Human artificial designers "NEED" to borrow from biological designs.

You haven't supported this.

If those biological designs were not good, why would there be bio-mimicry?

There is a difference between "good enough" and perfect

God separated the races and attempting to mix them is like attempting to mix water with diesel fuel.- Buzsaw Message 177

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by mike the wiz, posted 12-15-2011 1:23 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15468
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 14 of 373 (644192)
12-16-2011 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by mike the wiz
12-15-2011 1:23 PM


Humans use bio-mimicry. If those designs in biology, they borrow from, where not good designs, then why would designers use them?

This shows us 2 things.

1. Human artificial designers "NEED" to borrow from biological designs.
2. If those biological designs were not good, why would there be bio-mimicry?

For these clear logical reasons, it is self-evidence that good design exists, as we would expect it to, given an all-wise designer.

The only reason to deny that examples of bio-mimicry are not good design, would be because you had a motivation that meant that you do not want good biological designs to exist.

I.e. Denial.

Humans use bio-mimicry. If those adaptations in biology they borrow from, were not good adaptations, then why would designers use them?

This shows us 2 things.

1. Human artificial designers "NEED" to borrow from biological evolutionary adaptation.
2. If those biological adaptations were not good, why would there be bio-mimicry?

For these clear logical reasons, it is self-evidence that good adaptation exists, as we would expect it to, given evolution.

The only reason to deny that examples of bio-mimicry are good imitations of evolution would be because you had a motivation that meant that you do not want good evolutionary adaptations to exist.

I.e. Denial.

---

Now, why don't you come up with arguments for design that are not one vast petitio principii and which I therefore can't rewrite in this manner?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by mike the wiz, posted 12-15-2011 1:23 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Just being real
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 369
Joined: 08-26-2010


Message 15 of 373 (644198)
12-16-2011 5:31 AM


Hello Mike,

I'm afraid I have to agree with Admin on this a little bit when he says that words like "amazing" and "beautiful" etc. are kind of relative to the person making the observation. It seems to me that the real question here is, "How can we scientifically detect intelligence?" Take for example Subbie's picture of the antenna. If we are looking only at appearance, it appears quite jumbled and not very ordered. So is order and complexity really a tell tale sign for intelligence? Consider the following line:

;kajh;kJSDNG;kqkgt;alk;kkajnv;lakjgfal;jhga;kjnvc;akj ert

These are merely randomly typed keys on the keyboard. If I were to calculate the odds of a blind man sitting down and typing that exact line, the odds are one in an astronomical number that he would. So in a sense we could say that that line is very complex. But it still is a far cry from being intelligently designed. So what then differentiates that line from one directly above or below it that we know was intelligently designed? Well to answer that we can actually look in other fields of science and see how scientists in those fields detect intelligence.

For example Archaeologists infer intelligence in an artifacts formation by looking for specified design clues. That is to say features that the archaeologist recognizes as being formed with purpose in mind. Marine biologists detect levels of intelligence in dolphins by studying specified communication patterns of the dolphins. That is to say, patterns that the biologist recognizes as having specific meanings to the dolphin community. And finally, SETI scientists search for extra terrestrial intelligence by looking for specific radio signals that are narrow in bandwidth and are known only to occur artificially by an intelligent source with an intended purpose.

Note that in all three of these scientific fields, intelligence is being detected by something that can be termed as "specificity." Specificity can be defined like this: A distinguishing quality or attribute explicitly set forth; as Intended for, applying to, or acting on a particular thing: Something particularly fitted to a use or purpose. Any event or object which exhibits a pattern that matches a foreknown pattern that was completely interdependent of the first. In other words, for an observer to test for specificity, he must be able to recognize it from a completely independent experience. This can either be a pattern that produces a recognition response or a functional response. Therefore if specificity is recognized by the scientific community as a sign of intelligence, then whenever we observe it we can conclude that its origins are from an intelligent source.

Looking back at Subbie's picture, if we were to pick this device up in the forest we would know it was intelligently designed just by the fact that metal ore doesn't naturally form in thin wire like shapes. We may not recognize the arrangement of those shapes but the wires themselves would spark a recognition response from an independent experience. Likewise the threads on the base with the hex shaped bases end. So we would recognize certain specificity features to the devise even if we didn't have a clue what it was "designed" for. The problem is that no one seems to have a problem with trying to detect intelligence in marine biology, archaeology, or extra terrestrial, and calling that scientific research. But for some reason the moment we apply these same exact constructs to try and detect intelligence in the design of life or the universe, is suddenly is deemed pseudoscience. And no body can seem to quantify for me the reasons why?

DNA uses specified base code sequences and arrangements as the blue prints to build the correct cells. Here we have a clear case of code being transmitted, and then received to producing a functional response match, completely independent of the first (specificity). Devoid of any observable evidence that shows how it can possibly form naturally, it should be concluded to have originated from an intelligent source. Yet seemingly, for completely unscientific personally biased reasons, that conclusion is rejected time and time again.

Many highly respected and prominent astronomers and astrophysicist describe the cosmos under these same kinds of specified descriptors. Hoyle said that it appears to have been monkeyed with by a super-intellect. Paul Davies said the universe is remarkably ordered on all scales, organized into coherent identifiable structures with great complexity. John O'Keefe (astronomer at NASA) describes it as having exacting precision. George Greenstein says it is a "crafted" cosmos. Arno Penzias described it as delicately balanced exactly, appearing to have a supernatural plan. Roger Penrose says it appears to have purpose, and the list just goes on and on and on.

Likewise physicists often describe the very laws of physics to be specified and balanced perfectly for there to even be life. Electromagnetic forces, nuclear intensity, strength of gravity, mass of material, temperature, excitation of nuclei, and rate of expansion, (we are told) all had to somehow be “monkeyed” with to make the big bang event a mathematical possibility.


Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-16-2011 6:20 AM Just being real has responded
 Message 29 by subbie, posted 12-16-2011 11:38 AM Just being real has responded
 Message 30 by PaulK, posted 12-16-2011 3:23 PM Just being real has not yet responded
 Message 45 by bluegenes, posted 12-17-2011 8:13 AM Just being real has responded

    
1
23456
...
25NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017