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Author Topic:   Evolution is True Because Life Needs It
Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 15 of 188 (646102)
01-03-2012 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Invader Scooch
12-21-2011 3:19 PM


quote:
While I do agree there is no one model for Creation, I still need a Creationist to reply. All the responses have generally been Evolution peoples.
If you are on the Creation side of things, please respond.
Does evolution occur? Of course it does if by evolution you mean change. 2 prominent examples of evolution in action, which all the scientific textbooks cite, is the selective breeding of domestic animals or breeding of plants. Dog breeding gives us a wide variety of dogs. Another example is birds who migrate to an island, inbreed and adapt to their new environment. Migration, mutation, inbreeding, natural selection, and selective breeding, will produce organisms that are different from a similar bird on the mainland. If thats what you mean by evolution, then evolution is certainly true, it does happen.
Evolution in this sense isnt controversial. Natural selection was actually discovered by a creationist. The question however is the big questions. How do you get birds in the first place, how do you get dogs, how do you get humans. How do you start from a bacterial cell and over billions of years, get complex plants and animals, through the operation of purposeless, directionless natural processes. Thats whats supposed to happen, and what a skeptic wants to know is is that really true. Do we know how such a thing can happen?
"Evolution" turns out to mean just about anything that changes. Evolution means dog breeding, evolution means variation of the beaks of finches, evolution means how we get tall, short, black and white people, evolution means progress, evolution means selective breeding through the intelligent and creative power of human beings. The word evolution can actually distract attention from the main issue through the method of fog dispersion. For example, if you ask how do you get from a bacteria to a human over billions of years. The answer will be, look at the breeding and variety of domestic dogs. Look at the finches, they changed. Evolution then means everything from the smallest variation to the grand metaphysical story of how we got plants and animals in the first place.
Natural science asks what is the most plausible material mechanism of how we got here and the answer is the force that created variation within finches living on the Galapagos Islands. The flaw in the whole scenario is that the change and variation within a fundamentally stable species has been extrapolated to explain how you get finches and birds in the first place. How you get animals in the first place. Its a wild extrapolation and thats the answer they give you.
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Invader Scooch, posted 12-21-2011 3:19 PM Invader Scooch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Percy, posted 01-03-2012 7:43 AM Portillo has replied
 Message 62 by Invader Scooch, posted 02-19-2012 5:01 PM Portillo has not replied

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 45 of 188 (652618)
02-15-2012 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Percy
01-03-2012 7:43 AM


quote:
I expect your answer will be that your examination of the evidence drives your conclusions, so I would then ask what evidence you see that suggests small changes do not eventually accumulate into significant ones.
I will again anticipate your answer and guess that you will assert that new organs or body plans or limbs cannot form gradually because half an organ or limb is of no use, in which case I would ask why you think such a thing could ever happen, why you think harmful or useless characteristics like half an organ or limb would be selected by natural selection.
Genetic mutations are mostly harmful. The beneficial ones are relatively minor changes with no evidence they can produce new species. Its easy to explain how the beak of a finch changed when it experienced a new environment, but that does not remotely illustrate a process capable of making finches in the first place.
Can you give me an example of how small changes can turn a shrew into a human?

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Percy, posted 01-03-2012 7:43 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-15-2012 5:23 AM Portillo has not replied
 Message 47 by Panda, posted 02-15-2012 5:50 AM Portillo has not replied
 Message 48 by Panda, posted 02-15-2012 6:13 AM Portillo has replied
 Message 49 by Wounded King, posted 02-15-2012 7:14 AM Portillo has not replied
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 02-15-2012 10:17 AM Portillo has replied

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 52 of 188 (653081)
02-17-2012 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Percy
02-15-2012 10:17 AM


Well of course shrew's and humans share a common ancestor way way back, but I assume you understand that human's did not evolve from shrews.
From what I understand, tree shrews evolved into apes and apes into humans.
Is there something about a slow transformation from shrew to human that seems impossible to you?
Yes, because the evolution between shrews and humans has not been observed. There is no mechanism that can transform a shrew into a human. Transformations like that never occur, they arent recorded in the fossil record nor can they be seen in nature or demonstrated in the laboratory. It exists only in the imagination of the evolutionist. Because the mechanism that is cited in all the textbooks, is Darwins finches and the peppered moths. Small cyclical changes that never change the animals into something fundamentally different.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 02-15-2012 10:17 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Modulous, posted 02-17-2012 10:17 PM Portillo has not replied
 Message 56 by Percy, posted 02-17-2012 10:49 PM Portillo has not replied
 Message 57 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-17-2012 11:24 PM Portillo has not replied

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 54 of 188 (653089)
02-17-2012 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Panda
02-15-2012 6:13 AM


Do you accept that this
evolved into this?
Thats variation within a fundamentally stable species. Common examples of variation within species includes dog breeding, pigeon breeding, orchid breeding and rose cultivation. This type of change is often extrapolated to explain a process capable of creating dogs, pigeons and plants in the first place.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Panda, posted 02-15-2012 6:13 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Panda, posted 02-17-2012 10:37 PM Portillo has replied

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 58 of 188 (653098)
02-17-2012 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Panda
02-17-2012 10:37 PM


quote:
But do you accept that wolves evolved into chihuahuas?
Yes. Through wolves came domestic dogs and with natural selection, selective breeding, and artificial selection, we get a wide variety of dogs, both wild and domestic.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Panda, posted 02-17-2012 10:37 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Panda, posted 02-18-2012 5:42 AM Portillo has not replied
 Message 60 by Percy, posted 02-18-2012 8:05 AM Portillo has not replied
 Message 63 by Panda, posted 02-20-2012 5:48 AM Portillo has replied

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 64 of 188 (653330)
02-20-2012 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Panda
02-20-2012 5:48 AM


Re: Prompt for Portillo...
Hi Panda. Could you identify the animals for me. It looks like a cat and a fox?

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Panda, posted 02-20-2012 5:48 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Panda, posted 02-20-2012 6:36 AM Portillo has replied

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 66 of 188 (653334)
02-20-2012 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Panda
02-20-2012 6:36 AM


Re: Prompt for Portillo...
Thanks. I will answer your question as soon as I can.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Panda, posted 02-20-2012 6:36 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Invader Scooch, posted 02-20-2012 8:32 PM Portillo has replied

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 69 of 188 (653416)
02-20-2012 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Invader Scooch
02-20-2012 8:32 PM


Re: Prompt for Portillo...
Get someone else to debate you. Im preparing to answer Pandas question.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Invader Scooch, posted 02-20-2012 8:32 PM Invader Scooch has not replied

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 102 of 188 (653514)
02-21-2012 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Panda
02-20-2012 5:48 AM


Re: Prompt for Portillo...
Ok, you accept that some major physical changes can happen during evolution. e.g. from large to small, from hairy to hairless.
The evolution of a large dog to a small dog is certainly change of a kind. When the creationist Gregor Mendel discovered natural selection, he observed that peaplants could be crossbred to create different types of peaplants. Tall ones, short ones, big ones, little ones, different colored ones. Most species have this ability for variation within fundamentally stable species. Similarly with dogs, there is a wide variety of dogs, many of which have been created through selective breeding and artificial selection. All dogs, however, are one species and dont change into something fundamentally different. This isnt because you dont have enough time, its because you run out of variation.
The reasoning of course is that selective breeding is proof of evolution. And if we dont observe grand macro changes in nature, its because enough time hasnt passed. However, a child can spot the flaw in the scenario. One flaw is that artificial selection and selective breeding is a purposeful process with intelligence, skill and precision. Evolution is an unguided, purposeless and natural process. A step by step process, micromutation accumulated through natural selection, producing the diverse groups of animals from a cellular ancestor. Nature did its own creating, there was no intelligent agent. Another flaw is that breeders can produce change only within boundaries. Pigeons for example have been bred for 10,000 years, but they are still pigeons. There are also many examples of animals staying relatively the same over 200 million years, such as the cockroach. There are many types of cockroaches in the world, but they are still cockroaches. So even with large amounts of time, the limits for variability in the gene pool still exist.
This is why evolutionary biologists proclaim minor variation within species such as the peppered moths, as evidence for the grand macro evolutionary changes that happened in the past. Why is it that the best evidence for a mechanism capable of creating complex organisms, body plans, and changing a species into another, is Darwins finches and the peppered moths? The theory says we all evolved from a bacteria, which turned into a small animal and eventually into a human. And if you ask what the evidence is, the answer will be look at the different types dogs. So evidence for change within species is being extrapolated to explain how you get animals in the first place. Not how you get variation once you have the animal in existence.
While we certainly observe this kind of change:
We dont observe life arising from non-life, evolving into multicellular life, evolving into fish, evolving into amphibians, evolving into reptiles, evolving into birds, evolving into mammals, evolving into humans. Nor will ever.
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Panda, posted 02-20-2012 5:48 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-22-2012 2:46 AM Portillo has not replied
 Message 104 by Warthog, posted 02-22-2012 4:38 AM Portillo has not replied
 Message 105 by RAZD, posted 02-22-2012 8:42 AM Portillo has not replied
 Message 107 by Percy, posted 02-22-2012 11:21 AM Portillo has replied
 Message 108 by Panda, posted 02-22-2012 12:57 PM Portillo has replied
 Message 109 by hooah212002, posted 02-22-2012 2:05 PM Portillo has not replied
 Message 118 by Panda, posted 02-23-2012 11:54 AM Portillo has not replied
 Message 120 by Panda, posted 02-25-2012 4:29 AM Portillo has not replied

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 125 of 188 (657902)
04-01-2012 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Panda
02-22-2012 12:57 PM


Re: Prompt for Portillo...
Im not sure about those specific examples, but if a fox is part of the canine family and the cat is part of the feline family, then the answer is no.
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Panda, posted 02-22-2012 12:57 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Panda, posted 04-01-2012 6:43 AM Portillo has not replied
 Message 128 by Chuck77, posted 04-01-2012 6:57 AM Portillo has not replied
 Message 130 by Chuck77, posted 04-01-2012 4:36 PM Portillo has not replied

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 126 of 188 (657903)
04-01-2012 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Percy
02-22-2012 11:21 AM


How do you know all dogs are the same kind? How do you know that each dog breed, and the wolf, is not a separate kind? If your answer is that they are all mutually interfertile then I guess we finally have a definition of kind.
Thats true, with few exceptions, animals can breed with each other if they are part of the same species. Thats why with the cat, you can get ligers and leopons. With the horse, you can get zonkeys and zorses. Change and variation within a fundamentally stable species.
Given mutation, how does one run out of variation?
Living fossils are a perfect example. Coelacanths lived 300 million years ago and were thought to be extinct. When they were found in modern times, they were more or less exactly the same. The fossil record is filled with animals that have stayed the same for hundreds of millions of years. Why is it that living fossils like the cockroach and horseshoe crab stayed the same, while concurrently, there was a mammalian ancestor that was evolving into a whale, porpoise, seal, polar bear, bat, monkey, cat, pig, opossum and cattle?
Heres an example of the almost infinite change and variation possible within a species. Theres an orchestra with a conducter. They have beautiful instruments and are talented musicians. A scientist has discovered that this orchestra with 100 musicians and a conductor, can play 2 distinct symphonies a day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year, for millions of years, and never have to play the same symphony twice. The variation and potential is almost infinite. But after a few million of years, the conductor gets bored with soundwaves and decides to evolve. What do they have to do to evolve into ultraviolet waves, infrared waves or x-rays? They have to have a mutation. The conductor then starts moving his musicians around, destroys a few instruments, throws a few rocks and rearranges the orchestra. Well guess what happened? A radical change and a drastic mutation.
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Percy, posted 02-22-2012 11:21 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Percy, posted 04-01-2012 7:51 AM Portillo has not replied

  
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