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Author Topic:   Evolution is True Because Life Needs It
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15987
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 166 of 188 (671025)
08-21-2012 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by barnes
08-21-2012 3:20 PM


Re: Silly creationist story
Isn’t the cell just a smaller demonstration of complexity with in the whole? I.e. one cannot pull the piston out of a running engine without failure of the whole?

Perhaps you wish to pretend that that was a reply to my post. If so, be aware that you will not convince anyone.


This message is a reply to:
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Drosophilla
Member (Idle past 1258 days)
Posts: 172
From: Doncaster, yorkshire, UK
Joined: 08-25-2009


Message 167 of 188 (671026)
08-21-2012 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by barnes
08-21-2012 12:48 PM


Re: Evolution problem,silly story
Amazingly female elephants in Africa, Asia and in every zoo around the world have all given birth to a What, pending a name by a sufficiently important namer

*Blink*. Did you really mean that?

Do you really believe evolution postulates the sudden arrival of a new "species" from the womb of another? As in 'morphing' in Pokemon or Teenage Mutant Turtles? How old are you? You must have dropped out of life sciences early at school (or attended a very crap school).

If you want to discuss evolution do yourself a really big favour - take a basic biology course first - nothing too drastic. Here in the UK evolution basics are mastered in a less than a term typically by 13 year olds.

Then we could discuss things............


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by barnes, posted 08-21-2012 12:48 PM barnes has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 16343
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 168 of 188 (671031)
08-21-2012 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by barnes
08-21-2012 3:49 PM


Re: Silly creationist story
barnes writes:

I am still at a loss, the word selection assumes thought. What does nature ultimately select and why haven’t we seen any advancement in what we have. Has nature made her Ultimate selection?

Evolution is a process of mutation and natural selection. Natural selection is similar to artificial selection (e.g., breeding), but instead of people doing the selecting it is the natural environment that does it on the basis of traits. For example, in a cold environment heavier coats, a favorable trait, will provide a survival advantage and are therefore said to be selected for.

Variation will always be present in any population of organisms. Some individuals will have heavier coats, some lighter coats. As a region becomes gradually colder the population will change over a number of generations to be increasingly composed of individuals with heavier coats. If the region instead becomes gradually warmer then the opposite would be expected to occur.

Mutation (changes in genetic makeup that occur during reproduction) provides new variation to a population, to then be acted upon by natural selection just as it does on existing variation.

--Percy


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ringo
Member
Posts: 14002
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 169 of 188 (671039)
08-21-2012 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by barnes
08-21-2012 3:49 PM


Re: Silly creationist story
barnes writes:

I am still at a loss, the word selection assumes thought.


Not at all. For example, a sieve selects particles by size.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by barnes, posted 08-21-2012 3:49 PM barnes has not yet responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 1330 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 170 of 188 (671042)
08-21-2012 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by barnes
08-21-2012 12:11 PM


Re: Evolution problem
barnes writes:

I buy a lottery ticket, it wins. What might be construed as random chance; I pick up a lottery ticket from the side walk and it is a winner. Yes they are both chance one being a sought after chance and the other being a what, greater chance without a preconceived end result.


So, you agree that even the unlikely event of finding a winning lottery ticket is not only based on chance but you also agree that it is possible.

But, if you followed your own argument against the complexity of life, you would still say: "I think you boys are trying to tell me that I won the lottery through random chance. *rips up the ticket*"

barnes writes:

Please enlighten me that I might not make the same mistake.


Ask a question and I will try.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
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rueh
Member (Idle past 1278 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 171 of 188 (671074)
08-22-2012 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by barnes
08-21-2012 3:49 PM


Re: Silly creationist story
Barnes writes:

I am still at a loss, the word selection assumes thought.

No, artificial selection would assume thought. Natural selection is process that is guided by whatever bestows a survival or breeding advantage. It has no ultimate plan. If it works and the animal is able to breed, than the trait is passed on to subsequent generations. If not and the animal doesn't pass on it genetic mutations, than whatever mutations that animal had ends with the animal.
What dose nature ultimately select and why haven’t we seen any advancement in what we have.
There are many examples of evolution that has been observed. For that I, as others here have, would point you to a book on biology. An actual one not just crap read off the internet. I don't have enough time to eleborate as I have to go to work. I will try to get back to this post to expand if necessary.
Has nature maid her Ultimate selection?

There is no ultimate plan. The cycle of life, breeding and death is continous. So long as that is occuring than evolution is occuring.

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
It takes all kinds to make a mess- Benjamin Hoff

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by barnes, posted 08-21-2012 3:49 PM barnes has responded

Replies to this message:
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barnes
Junior Member (Idle past 1849 days)
Posts: 19
Joined: 08-20-2012


Message 172 of 188 (671499)
08-26-2012 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by rueh
08-22-2012 7:05 AM


Re: Silly creationist story
Ev`o`lu´tion Pronunciation: ĕv`ô`lū´shŭn
n. 1. The act of unfolding or unrolling; hence, any process of growth or development; as, the evolution of a flower from a bud, or an animal from the egg.

2. A series of things unrolled or unfolded.

3. (Geom.) The formation of an involute by unwrapping a thread from a curve as an evolute.

4. (Arith. & Alg.) The extraction of roots; - the reverse of involution.

5. (Mil. & Naval) A prescribed movement of a body of troops, or a vessel or fleet; any movement designed to effect a new arrangement or disposition; a maneuver.
Those evolutions are best which can be executed with the greatest celerity, compatible with regularity.
- Campbell.
6. (Biol.) A general name for the history of the steps by which any living organism has acquired the morphological and physiological characters which distinguish it; a gradual unfolding of successive phases of growth or development.

7. (Biol.) That theory of generation which supposes the germ to preëxist in the parent, and its parts to be developed, but not actually formed, by the procreative act; - opposed to epigenesis.

8. (Metaph.) That series of changes under natural law which involves continuous progress from the homogeneous to the heterogeneous in structure, and from the single and simple to the diverse and manifold in quality or function. The process is by some limited to organic beings; by others it is applied to the inorganic and the psychical. It is also applied to explain the existence and growth of institutions, manners, language, civilization, and every product of human activity. The agencies and laws of the process are variously explained by different philosophrs.
Evolution is to me series with development.- Gladstone

addition, advance, approximation, beautification, change, developing, development, differentiation, division, elaboration, embellishment, equation, evolvement, evolving, extrapolation, flowering, formation, growing, growth, integration, interpolation, inversion, involution, maturation, multiplication, notation, perfection, phylogeny, practice, production, progress, progression, proportion, reduction, refinement, ripening, seasoning, subtraction, transformation, unfolding, upgrowth

Evolution
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations. Evolutionary processes give rise to diversity at every level of biological organisation, including species, individual organisms and molecules such as DNA and proteins.[1][page needed]
Life on Earth originated and then evolved from a universal common ancestor approximately 3.7 billion years ago. Repeated speciation and the divergence of life can be inferred from shared sets of biochemical and morphological traits, or by shared DNA sequences. These homologous traits and sequences are more similar among species that share a more recent common ancestor, and can be used to reconstruct evolutionary histories, using both existing species and the fossil record. Existing patterns of biodiversity have been shaped both by speciation and by extinction.[2][page needed]
Charles Darwin was the first to formulate a scientific argument for the theory of evolution by means of natural selection. Evolution by natural selection is a process that is inferred from three facts about populations: 1) more offspring are produced than can possibly survive, 2) traits vary among individuals, leading to differential rates of survival and reproduction, and 3) trait differences are heritable.[3] Thus, when members of a population die they are replaced by the progeny of parents that were better adapted to survive and reproduce in the environment in which natural selection took place. This process creates and preserves traits that are seemingly fitted for the functional roles they perform.[4] Natural selection is the only known cause of adaptation, but not the only known cause of evolution. Other, nonadaptive causes of evolution include mutation and genetic drift.[5]
In the early 20th century, genetics was integrated with Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection through the discipline of population genetics. The importance of natural selection as a cause of evolution was accepted into other branches of biology. Moreover, previously held notions about evolution, such as orthogenesis and "progress" became obsolete.[6] Scientists continue to study various aspects of evolution by forming and testing hypotheses, constructing scientific theories, using observational data, and performing experiments in both the field and the laboratory. Biologists agree that descent with modification is one of the most reliably established facts in science.[7] Discoveries in evolutionary biology have made a significant impact not just within the traditional branches of biology, but also in other academic disciplines (e.g., anthropology and psychology) and on society at large.[8][9]

Ad`ap`ta´tion
n. 1. The act or process of adapting, or fitting; or the state of being adapted or fitted; fitness.

2. The result of adapting; an adapted form.

Nachtmusik, about-face, absolute music, accommodation, accord, accordance, acquiescence, adaption, adjusting, adjustment, agreement, air varie, aleatory, aleatory music, alignment, alteration, amelioration, apostasy, arrangement, assimilation, attunement, bearings, betterment, biological evolution, break, chamber music, chamber orchestra, change, change of heart, changeableness, coaptation, compliance, composition, conditioning, conformance, conformation other-direction, conformity, congruity, consistency, constructive change, continuity, conventionality, conversion, coordination, correspondence, defection, degeneration, degenerative change, descant, deterioration, deviation, difference, discontinuity, disorientation, divergence, diversification, diversion, diversity, electronic music, enablement, equipment, etude, exercise, fit, fitting, flexibility, flip-flop, furnishing, genesis, gradual change, harmonization, harmony, horotely, improvement, incidental music, instrumental music, instrumentation, integration, intonation, invention, keeping, line, malleability, melioration, mitigation, modification, modifying, modulation, natural selection, nocturne, obedience, observance, ontogenesis, ontogeny, opus, orchestration, orientation, orthodoxy, overthrow, phrasing, phylogenesis, phylogeny, physiogenesis, physiogeny, piece, pliancy, preparation, production, program music, qualification, radical change, re-creation, realignment, reconcilement, reconciliation, redesign, reform, reformation, regulation, remaking, renewal, reshaping, resolution, restructuring, reversal, revival, revivification, revolution, ricercar, score, setting, shift, solution, sonata, sonatina, squaring, strictness, string orchestra, string quartet, study, sudden change, suiting, suspension, switch, synchronization, tachytely, theme and variations, timing, tone painting, total change, traditionalism, transcription, transition, trio, tuning, turn, turnabout, uniformity, upheaval, variation, variety, violent change, work, worsening

Can´cer
n. 1. (Zool.) A genus of decapod Crustacea, including some of the most common shore crabs of Europe and North America, as the rock crab, Jonah crab, etc. See Crab.

2. (Astron.) The fourth of the twelve signs of the zodiac. The first point is the northern limit of the sun's course in summer; hence, the sign of the summer solstice. See Tropic.

3. (Med.) Formerly, any malignant growth, esp. one attended with great pain and ulceration, with cachexia and progressive emaciation. It was so called, perhaps, from the great veins which surround it, compared by the ancients to the claws of a crab. The term is now restricted to such a growth made up of aggregations of epithelial cells, either without support or embedded in the meshes of a trabecular framework.
Cancer cells
cells once believed to be peculiar to cancers, but now know to be epithelial cells differing in no respect from those found elsewhere in the body, and distinguished only by peculiarity of location and grouping.

Cancer root
(Bot.) the name of several low plants, mostly parasitic on roots, as the beech drops, the squawroot, etc.

benign tumor, blast, blight, callosity, callus, canker, carcinoma, corn, cyst, dry rot, excrescence, fungosity, fungus, growth, intumescence, malignant growth, metastatic tumor, mildew, mold, mole, morbid growth, moth, moth and rust, must, neoplasm, nevus, nonmalignant tumor, outgrowth, pest, proud flesh, rot, rust, sarcoma, smut, tumor, verruca, wart, wen, worm

Cancer is a class of diseases characterized by out-of-control cell growth. There are over 100 different types of cancer, and each is classified by the type of cell that is initially affected.
Cancer harms the body when damaged cells divide uncontrollably to form lumps or masses of tissue called tumors (except in the case of leukemia where cancer prohibits normal blood function by abnormal cell division in the blood stream). Tumors can grow and interfere with the digestive, nervous, and circulatory systems, and they can release hormones that alter body function. Tumors that stay in one spot and demonstrate limited growth are generally considered to be benign.

More dangerous, or malignant, tumors form when two things occur:
1. a cancerous cell manages to move throughout the body using the blood or lymph systems, destroying healthy tissue in a process called invasion
2. that cell manages to divide and grow, making new blood vessels to feed itself in a process called angiogenesis.
When a tumor successfully spreads to other parts of the body and grows, invading and destroying other healthy tissues, it is said to have metastasized. This process itself is called metastasis, and the result is a serious condition that is very difficult to treat.
In 2007, cancer claimed the lives of about 7.6 million people in the world. Physicians and researchers who specialize in the study, diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of cancer are called oncologists.
What causes cancer?
Cancer is ultimately the result of cells that uncontrollably grow and do not die. Normal cells in the body follow an orderly path of growth, division, and death. Programmed cell death is called apoptosis, and when this process breaks down, cancer begins to form. Unlike regular cells, cancer cells do not experience programmatic death and instead continue to grow and divide. This leads to a mass of abnormal cells that grows out of control.
Genes - the DNA type
Cells can experience uncontrolled growth if there are damages or mutations to DNA, and therefore, damage to the genes involved in cell division. Four key types of gene are responsible for the cell division process: oncogenes tell cells when to divide, tumor suppressor genes tell cells when not to divide, suicide genes control apoptosis and tell the cell to kill itself if something goes wrong, and DNA-repair genes instruct a cell to repair damaged DNA.
Cancer occurs when a cell's gene mutations make the cell unable to correct DNA damage and unable to commit suicide. Similarly, cancer is a result of mutations that inhibit oncogene and tumor suppressor gene function, leading to uncontrollable cell growth.
Carcinogens
Carcinogens are a class of substances that are directly responsible for damaging DNA, promoting or aiding cancer. Tobacco, asbestos, arsenic, radiation such as gamma and x-rays, the sun, and compounds in car exhaust fumes are all examples of carcinogens. When our bodies are exposed to carcinogens, free radicals are formed that try to steal electrons from other molecules in the body. Theses free radicals damage cells and affect their ability to function normally.
Genes - the family type
Cancer can be the result of a genetic predisposition that is inherited from family members. It is possible to be born with certain genetic mutations or a fault in a gene that makes one statistically more likely to develop cancer later in life.

Here goes a crazy country kid. Nonadaptive causes of evolution include mutation and genetic drift, by looking at cancer and what it is, cancer is mutation and genetic drift. Living organisms combat mutation and genetic drift. Four key types of gene are responsible for the cell division process: oncogenes tell cells when to divide, tumor suppressor genes tell cells when not to divide, suicide genes control apoptosis and tell the cell to kill itself if something goes wrong, and DNA-repair genes instruct a cell to repair damaged DNA. I do not see evolution in these natural defenses. What I do see in the world is adaptation. The fox through natural selection will begot, a fox, better adapted to survive in an ever changing world, the whole time never changing from a fox. The fox was Created a fox and will stay a fox, just better adapted to carry on as a fox.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by rueh, posted 08-22-2012 7:05 AM rueh has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Percy, posted 08-26-2012 5:16 PM barnes has responded
 Message 187 by rueh, posted 08-28-2012 9:44 AM barnes has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16343
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 173 of 188 (671500)
08-26-2012 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by barnes
08-26-2012 4:56 PM


Re: Silly creationist story
barnes writes:

The fox through natural selection will beget a fox, better adapted to survive in an ever changing world,...

You seem to be agreeing with the premise of this thread, that evolutionary change is inherent to life and produces improving adaptation to the environment.

...the whole time never changing from a fox. The fox was Created a fox and will stay a fox, just better adapted to carry on as a fox.

And you seem to be disagreeing that evolutionary change can accumulate to the point of change beyond the species level, but I don't think that's something we're discussing in this thread. If you'd like to discuss the evidence for speciation or macroevolution then you should probably propose a new thread over at Proposed New Topics.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by barnes, posted 08-26-2012 4:56 PM barnes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by barnes, posted 08-26-2012 6:04 PM Percy has responded

    
barnes
Junior Member (Idle past 1849 days)
Posts: 19
Joined: 08-20-2012


Message 174 of 188 (671503)
08-26-2012 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Percy
08-26-2012 5:16 PM


Re: Silly creationist story
I apologize; I don’t know how to clip out the sentence so I’ll do one response. Evolutionary change precludes physical change. Adaptation precludes no physical change but improvements relative to the environment.
We are discussing evolution; I was told it doesn’t occur in quantum leaps but on the minute changes. Is it then wrong off me to say minute genetic change is also called cancer; environmental change to the genome is also called cancer. The natural makeup of life combats genetic change. I just want to know how evolution fits in; I understand how adaptation can bring about better foxes.
Little off topic has anyone taken the foxes from the breading program and returned them to the wild? I would guess like pigs the foxes would return to their created state.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Percy, posted 08-26-2012 5:16 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 16343
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 175 of 188 (671505)
08-26-2012 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by barnes
08-26-2012 6:04 PM


Re: Silly creationist story
Hi Barnes,

Cancer is a disease that causes cells to grow uncontrollably. Checking out the Wikipedia entry, the causes can be genetic, but there are many other causes.

A genetic change (mutation) can cause cancer, but usually not. Cellular reproduction almost always includes at least a few mutations, and the vast majority of cells are not cancerous. Every fish, reptile and mammal began as a single cell that split many, many times to become billions of cells. Almost every cell division resulted in a at least a few mutations, yet cancer is rare.

A cell's internal machinery does possess mechanisms protecting itself from genetic accidents, but mutations slip through nonetheless.

barnes writes:

Adaptation precludes no physical change but improvements relative to the environment.

Adaptational change below the species level most definitely includes physical changes. For example, the finches of the Galapagos that have been studied so extensively change the size and shape of their beaks in response to environmental factors.

If you want to see how to produce quotes then click the "peek" button for this message to see an example.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by barnes, posted 08-26-2012 6:04 PM barnes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10127
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 176 of 188 (671506)
08-26-2012 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by barnes
08-26-2012 6:04 PM


Re: Silly creationist story
Evolutionary change precludes physical change. Adaptation precludes no physical change but improvements relative to the environment.

What does the word "preclude" mean in the sentence above. I cannot come up with any way to make sense out of the sentence.

We are discussing evolution; I was told it doesn’t occur in quantum leaps but on the minute changes. Is it then wrong off me to say minute genetic change is also called cancer; environmental change to the genome is also called cancer. The natural makeup of life combats genetic change. I just want to know how evolution fits in; I understand how adaptation can bring about better foxes.

You are confusing some concepts here. Cancer is a change to an individual and not a change in the offspring produced by the individual. Only the latter involves processes which make up evolution.

In the breeding experiment, we don't see individual foxes become more docile over time, instead we see offspring populations that are more docile than their ancestor population. This process is like evolution in some respects, but the selection is artificial rather than natural.

I would guess like pigs the foxes would return to their created state.

How would that happen?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
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foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 887
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 177 of 188 (671521)
08-26-2012 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Percy
08-26-2012 6:30 PM


Re: Silly creationist story
percy writes:

Almost every cell division resulted in a at least a few mutations, yet cancer is rare.

Can you provide a link that shows that every time a cell divides, it possesses new mutations?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Percy, posted 08-26-2012 6:30 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Percy, posted 08-26-2012 9:30 PM foreveryoung has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16343
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 178 of 188 (671522)
08-26-2012 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by foreveryoung
08-26-2012 8:42 PM


Re: Silly creationist story
See the Wikipedia article on mutation rates.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by foreveryoung, posted 08-26-2012 8:42 PM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by foreveryoung, posted 08-26-2012 9:59 PM Percy has responded

    
foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 887
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 179 of 188 (671524)
08-26-2012 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Percy
08-26-2012 9:30 PM


Re: Silly creationist story
See the Wikipedia article on mutation rates.

--Percy

There is nothing in that article which supports your claim that mutations occur roughly everytime a cell divides.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Percy, posted 08-26-2012 9:30 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Percy, posted 08-26-2012 10:17 PM foreveryoung has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16343
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 180 of 188 (671526)
08-26-2012 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by foreveryoung
08-26-2012 9:59 PM


Re: Silly creationist story
Hi ForEverYoung,

You forgot the quote codes.

foreveryoung writes:

There is nothing in that article which supports your claim that mutations occur roughly everytime a cell divides.

Sure there is:

Wikipedia article on mutation rates writes:

Using data available from whole genome sequencing, the human genome mutation rate is similarly estimated to be ~1.1×10-8 per site per generation.

The human genome has about 3.2 billion sites (base pairs), so doing the multiplication we find that the number of mutations that can be expected in every newborn is about 35. The odds of a newborn with no mutations is (1 - 1.1×10-8)3.2×109, which is about 5×10-16 or less than one in every quadrillion births.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by foreveryoung, posted 08-26-2012 9:59 PM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by foreveryoung, posted 08-26-2012 10:46 PM Percy has responded
 Message 184 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-26-2012 11:48 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
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