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Author Topic:   Evolution is True Because Life Needs It
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 31 of 188 (646201)
01-03-2012 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by mike the wiz
01-03-2012 4:03 PM


Re: Fun with Strawmen!
There are no strawmans. It is an observation. The general claim of evolution is that every single organism on this planet stemmed from an original common ancestor.
That is a claim biologists make, yes. But that is not the claim you made;
Mike writes:
The problem with evolution is that if you observe a snail in the Cambrian era, and a snail now, you will not see a logically equivalent change between the extinct organism and it's extant counterpart.
You clearly claimed that the lack of "logically equivalent change" (a nonsense term that you made up) posed a problem for the ToE, as that were what the ToE predicts. It does not. That is your false claim.
Fact is logic itself requires, that to prove the ToE, you have to show that the mechanisms have the power to evolve into new creatures.
Random mutation and natural selection seem like rather a good start.
It is irrelevant that organisms don't need to change, necessarily, the point it a logical one, that the claim is that all of these changes came about BECAUSE of evolution. To show this is an absolutely miniscule way would be to show one novel morphology in the lab. That is not the case.
Yes it is. The evolution of citrate metabolism in e-Coli demonstrates this.
The actual facts, if you ignore evolutionary dogma, about the fossil record being a record of life evolving rather than being a grave, shows that the Cambrian contains snails. There are, in many different eras, morphologies that are identical to todays, such as pollen and feathers.
No. There were no feathers or pollen in the Cambrian.
Show me the Cambrian organism that has "basically stayed the same" as a rabbit. Or a blue-footed booby. Or a whale shark. Or a spider mite, or an oak tree or a gecko, or a stinkhorn...
Stasis my ass. Ooh! There's a good one! Show me a Cambrian ass!
The burden of proof is not on me to exactly state the hypothetics of evolution. I have an understanding of evolution, enough of an understanding, but logically that has nothing to do with the problem in hand.
What really?! You don't think that your comprehension of a topic is relevant to your ability to discuss it coherently?
Wow.
It states that every organism was a result of changes caused by an evolution, a potential non-sequitur.
Oh look, you're still wrong. An evolution? WTF?
We know of many lineages that turned out to not be accepted.
Accepted?
A mad, retarded, deformed frog-man, out of his mind, completely gone, can still state something true.
Then I can only suggest that you find one and ask him to teach you about evolution. He would doubtless do a better job.
Goodbye
Knowing your usual MO, this is the prelude to another twenty or so messages telling us how you won't be posting any more messages.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by mike the wiz, posted 01-03-2012 4:03 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(4)
Message 32 of 188 (646208)
01-03-2012 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by mike the wiz
01-03-2012 4:03 PM


Re: Fun with Strawmen!
Mabye this will help, Mike:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by mike the wiz, posted 01-03-2012 4:03 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 275 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 33 of 188 (646216)
01-03-2012 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by mike the wiz
01-03-2012 4:03 PM


Re: Fun with Strawmen!
The actual facts, if you ignore evolutionary dogma, about the fossil record being a record of life evolving rather than being a grave, shows that the Cambrian contains snails. [...] If you say that none-evolution also favours evolution and does not falsify it, then logically you can not falsify evolution.
Please stop using the word "logically", as logic is not a quality your statements exhibit.
Evolution is of course falsifiable, but it is not falsifiable by observing (relative) stasis in some groups any more than you can falsify the proposition that people move house, move from city to city, and even move from country to country by finding that one person or even several people have lived their whole lives in the same house.
Yes, the Cambrian contains snails. Here's some of the things it doesn't contain:
Ornithorhynchus
Tachyglossus
Zaglossus
Dasycercus
Dasykaluta
Dasyuroides
Dasyurus
Myoictis
Neophascogale
Parantechinus
Phascolosorex
Pseudantechinus
Sarcophilus
Antechinus
Micromurexia
Murexechinus
Murexia
Paramurexia
Phascogale
Phascomurexia
Planigale
Antechinomys
Ningaui
Sminthopsis
Myrmecobius
Caluromys
Caluromysiops
Chironectes
Didelphis
Lutreolina
Philander
Marmosa
Micoureus
Monodelphis
Tlacuatzin
Metachirus
Chacodelphys
Cryptonanus
Gracilinanus
Lestodelphys
Marmosops
Thylamys
Glironia
Hyladelphys
Diprotodontia
Hypsiprymnodon
Dendrolagus
Dorcopsis
Dorcopsulus
Lagorchestes
Micropus
Onychogalea
Petrogale
Setonix
Thylogale
Wallabia
Lagostrophus
Aepyprymnus
Bettongia
Potorous
Acrobates
Distoechurus
Dactylopsila
Gymnobelideus
Petaurus
Hemibelideus
Petauroides
Petropseudes
Pseudocheirus
Pseudochirulus
Pseudochirops
Tarsipes
Burramys
Cercartetus
Ailurops
Strigocuscus
Phalanger
Spilocuscus
Trichosurus
Wyulda
Phascolarctos
Lasiorhinus
Vombatus
Dromiciops
Notoryctes
Caenolestes
Lestoros
Rhyncholestes
Echymipera
Microperoryctes
Rhynchomeles
Isoodon
Perameles
Peroryctes
Macrotis
Amblysomus
Calcochloris
Neamblysomus
Carpitalpa
Chlorotalpa
Chrysochloris
Chrysospalax
Cryptochloris
Eremitalpa
Geogale
Limnogale
Microgale
Oryzorictes
Micropotamogale
Potamogale
Echinops
Hemicentetes
Setifer
Tenrec
Elephantulus
Macroscelides
Petrodromus
Rhynchocyon
Orycteropus
Dendrohyrax
Heterohyrax
Procavia
Elephas
Loxodonta
Dugong
Trichechus
Cynocephalus
Galeopterus
Brachylagus
Bunolagus
Caprolagus
Lepus
Nesolagus
Oryctolagus
Pentalagus
Poelagus
Pronolagus
Romerolagus
Sylvilagus
Ochotona
Allenopithecus
Cercopithecus
Chlorocebus
Erythrocebus
Miopithecus
Macaca
Lophocebus
Papio
Theropithecus
Cercocebus
Mandrillus
Rungwecebus
Colobus
Nasalis
Presbytis
Procolobus
Pygathrix
Rhinopithecus
Semnopithecus
Simias
Trachypithecus
Gorilla
Homo
Pan
Pongo
Hylobates
Hoolock
Nomascus
Symphalangus
Callimico
Callibella
Callithrix
Cebuella
Mico
Saguinus
Leontopithecus
Cebus
Saimiri
Aotus
Pithecia
Chiropotes
Cacajao
Callicebus
Ateles
Brachyteles
Lagothrix
Oreonax
Alouatta
Tarsius
Daubentonia
Allocebus
Cheirogaleus
Microcebus
Mirza
Phaner
Avahi
Indri
Propithecus
Eulemur
Hapalemur
Lemur
Prolemur
Varecia
Lepilemur
Otolemur
Euoticus
Galago
Arctocebus
Loris
Nycticebus
Perodicticus
Pseudopotto
Aplodontia
Callosciurus
Dremomys
Exilisciurus
Funambulus
Glyphotes
Hyosciurus
Lariscus
Menetes
Nannosciurus
Prosciurillus
Rhinosciurus
Rubrisciurus
Sundasciurus
Tamiops
Ratufa
Microsciurus
Rheithrosciurus
Sciurus
Syntheosciurus
Tamiasciurus
Aeretes
Aeromys
Belomys
Biswamoyopterus
Eoglaucomys
Eupetaurus
Glaucomys
Hylopetes
Iomys
Petaurillus
Petaurista
Petinomys
Pteromys
Pteromyscus
Trogopterus
Sciurillus
Ammospermophilus
Cynomys
Eutamias
Marmota
Neotamias
Notocitellus
Otospermophilus
Poliocitellus
Sciurotamias
Spermophilus
Tamias
Xerospermophilus
Epixerus
Funisciurus
Heliosciurus
Myosciurus
Paraxerus
Protoxerus
Atlantoxerus
Spermophilopsis
Xerus
Graphiurus
Chaetocauda
Dryomys
Eliomys
Myomimus
Muscardinus
Selevinia
Glirulus
Glis
Castor
Dipodomys
Microdipodops
Heteromys
Liomys
Chaetodipus
Perognathus
Cratogeomys
Geomys
Orthogeomys
Pappogeomys
Thomomys
Zygogeomys
Allactaga
Allactodipus
Pygeretmus
Cardiocranius
Salpingotulus
Salpingotus
Dipus
Eremodipus
Jaculus
Paradipus
Stylodipus
Euchoreutes
Sicista
Eozapus
Napaeozapus
Zapus
Platacanthomys
Typhlomys
Calomyscus
Alticola
Arborimus
Arvicola
Blanfordimys
Caryomys
Chionomys
Dicrostonyx
Dinaromys
Ellobius
Eolagurus
Eothenomys
Hyperacrius
Lagurus
Lasiopodomys
Lemmiscus
Lemmus
Microtus
Myodes
Myopus
Neodon
Neofiber
Ondatra
Phaiomys
Phenacomys
Proedromys
Prometheomys
Synaptomys
Volemys
Allocricetulus
Cansumys
Cricetulus
Cricetus
Mesocricetus
Phodopus
Tscherskia
Baiomys
Habromys
Hodomys
Isthmomys
Megadontomys
Nelsonia
Neotoma
Neotomodon
Ochrotomys
Onychomys
Osgoodomys
Peromyscus
Podomys
Reithrodontomys
Scotinomys
Xenomys
Delomys
Irenomys
Juliomys
Phaenomys
Punomys
Wiedomys
Wilfredomys
Abrothrix
Chelemys
Geoxus
Notiomys
Pearsonomys
Akodon
Bibimys
Blarinomys
Brucepattersonius
Deltamys
Juscelinomys
Kunsia
Lenoxus
Necromys
Oxymycterus
Podoxymys
Scapteromys
Thalpomys
Thaptomys
Anotomys
Chibchanomys
Ichthyomys
Neusticomys
Rheomys
Aegialomys
Amphinectomys
Cerradomys
Drymoreomys
Eremoryzomys
Euryoryzomys
Handleyomys
Holochilus
Hylaeamys
Lundomys
Melanomys
Microakodontomys
Microryzomys
Mindomys
Neacomys
Nectomys
Nephelomys
Nesoryzomys
Oecomys
Oligoryzomys
Oreoryzomys
Oryzomys
Pseudoryzomys
Scolomys
Sigmodontomys
Sooretamys
Transandinomys
Zygodontomys
Andalgalomys
Andinomys
Auliscomys
Calomys
Chinchillula
Eligmodontia
Galenomys
Graomys
Loxodontomys
Paralomys
Phyllotis
Salinomys
Tapecomys
Euneomys
Neotomys
Reithrodon
Sigmodon
Abrawayaomys
Aepeomys
Chilomys
Rhagomys
Rhipidomys
Thomasomys
Otonyctomys
Nyctomys
Tylomys
Ototylomys
Lophiomys
Acomys
Deomys
Lophuromys
Uranomys
Ammodillus
Brachiones
Desmodilliscus
Desmodillus
Dipodillus
Gerbilliscus
Gerbillurus
Gerbillus
Meriones
Microdillus
Pachyuromys
Psammomys
Rhombomys
Sekeetamys
Tatera
Taterillus
Leimacomys
Abditomys
Abeomelomys
Aethomys
Anisomys
Anonymomys
Apodemus
Apomys
Archboldomys
Arvicanthis
Baiyankamys
Bandicota
Batomys
Berylmys
Bullimus
Bunomys
Carpomys
Chiromyscus
Chiropodomys
Chiruromys
Chrotomys
Coccymys
Colomys
Conilurus
Crateromys
Cremnomys
Crossomys
Crunomys
Dacnomys
Dasymys
Dephomys
Desmomys
Diomys
Diplothrix
Echiothrix
Eropeplus
Golunda
Grammomys
Hadromys
Haeromys
Hapalomys
Heimyscus
Hybomys
Hydromys
Hylomyscus
Hyomys
Kadarsanomys
Komodomys
Lamottemys
Leggadina
Lemniscomys
Lenomys
Lenothrix
Leopoldamys
Leporillus
Leptomys
Limnomys
Lorentzimys
Macruromys
Madromys
Malacomys
Mallomys
Mammelomys
Margaretamys
Mastacomys
Mastomys
Maxomys
Melasmothrix
Melomys
Mesembriomys
Micaelamys
Microhydromys
Micromys
Millardia
Mirzamys
Muriculus
Mus
Musseromys
Mylomys
Myomyscus
Myotomys
Nesokia
Nesoromys
Nilopegamys
Niviventer
Notomys
Oenomys
Otomys
Palawanomys
Papagomys
Parahydromys
Paraleptomys
Paramelomys
Parotomys
Paruromys
Paulamys
Pelomys
Phloeomys
Pithecheir
Pithecheirops
Pogonomelomys
Pogonomys
Praomys
Protochromys
Pseudohydromys
Pseudomys
Rattus
Rhabdomys
Rhynchomys
Saxatilomys
Solomys
Sommeromys
Srilankamys
Stenocephalemys
Stochomys
Sundamys
Taeromys
Tarsomys
Tateomys
Thallomys
Thamnomys
Tokudaia
Tonkinomys
Tryphomys
Uromys
Vandeleuria
Vernaya
Xenuromys
Xeromys
Zelotomys
Zyzomys
Beamys
Cricetomys
Saccostomus
Delanymys
Dendromus
Dendroprionomys
Leimacomys
Malacothrix
Megadendromus
Prionomys
Steatomys
Mystromys
Brachytarsomys
Brachyuromys
Eliurus
Gymnuromys
Hypogeomys
Macrotarsomys
Monticolomys
Nesomys
Voalavo
Petromyscus
Myospalax
Eospalax
Cannomys
Rhizomys
Tachyoryctes
Spalax
Anomalurus
Idiurus
Zenkerella
Pedetes
Ctenodactylus
Felovia
Massoutiera
Pectinator
Laonastes
Bathyergus
Cryptomys
Fukomys
Georychus
Heliophobius
Heterocephalus
Atherurus
Hystrix
Trichys
Petromus
Thryonomys
Abrocoma
Cuscomys
Capromys
Geocapromys
Mesocapromys
Mysateles
Plagiodontia
Cavia
Galea
Microcavia
Dolichotis
Hydrochoerus
Kerodon
Chinchilla
Lagidium
Lagostomus
Ctenomys
Cuniculus
Dasyprocta
Myoprocta
Dinomys
Dactylomys
Kannabateomys
Olallamys
Callistomys
Diplomys
Echimys
Isothrix
Makalata
Pattonomys
Phyllomys
Toromys
Carterodon
Clyomys
Euryzygomatomys
Hoplomys
Lonchothrix
Mesomys
Proechimys
Thrichomys
Trinomys
Chaetomys
Coendou
Echinoprocta
Erethizon
Sphiggurus
Myocastor
Aconaemys
Octodon
Octodontomys
Octomys
Pipanacoctomys
Salinoctomys
Spalacopus
Tympanoctomys
Ptilocercus
Anathana
Dendrogale
Tupaia
Urogale
Choeropsis
Hippopotamus
Babyrousa
Hylochoerus
Phacochoerus
Potamochoerus
Sus
Porcula
Catagonus
Pecari
Tayassu
Camelus
Lama
Vicugna
Antilocapra
Aepyceros
Alcelaphus
Beatragus
Connochaetes
Damaliscus
Ammodorcas
Antidorcas
Antilope
Dorcatragus
Eudorcas
Gazella
Litocranius
Madoqua
Nanger
Neotragus
Oreotragus
Ourebia
Pantholops
Procapra
Raphicerus
Saiga
Bison
Bos
Boselaphus
Bubalus
Poephagus
Pseudoryx
Syncerus
Taurotragus
Tetracerus
Tragelaphus
Ammotragus
Arabitragus
Budorcas
Capra
Capricornis
Hemitragus
Naemorhedus
Nilgiritragus
Oreamnos
Ovibos
Ovis
Pantholops
Pseudois
Rupicapra
Cephalophus
Philantomba
Sylvicapra
Addax
Hippotragus
Oryx
Kobus
Pelea
Redunca
Alces
Blastocerus
Capreolus
Hippocamelus
Mazama
Odocoileus
Ozotoceros
Pudu
Rangifer
Axis
Cervus
Dama
Elaphodus
Elaphurus
Muntiacus
Hydropotes
Giraffa
Okapia
Moschus
Hyemoschus
Moschiola
Tragulus
Ailurus
Atelocynus
Canis
Cerdocyon
Chrysocyon
Cuon
Lycalopex
Lycaon
Nyctereutes
Otocyon
Speothos
Urocyon
Vulpes
Conepatus
Mephitis
Mydaus
Spilogale
Amblonyx
Aonyx
Enhydra
Hydrictis
Lontra
Lutra
Lutrogale
Pteronura
Arctonyx
Eira
Galictis
Gulo
Ictonyx
Lyncodon
Martes
Meles
Mellivora
Melogale
Mustela
Neovison
Poecilogale
Taxidea
Vormela
Odobenus
Arctocephalus
Callorhinus
Eumetopias
Neophoca
Otaria
Phocarctos
Zalophus
Cystophora
Erignathus
Halichoerus
Histriophoca
Hydrurga
Leptonychotes
Lobodon
Mirounga
Monachus
Ommatophoca
Pagophilus
Phoca
Pusa
Bassaricyon
Potos
Bassariscus
Nasua
Nasuella
Procyon
Ailuropoda
Helarctos
Melursus
Tremarctos
Ursus
Eupleres
Fossa
Cryptoprocta
Galidia
Galidictis
Mungotictis
Salanoia
Acinonyx
Caracal
Catopuma
Felis
Leopardus
Leptailurus
Lynx
Pardofelis
Prionailurus
Profelis
Puma
Neofelis
Panthera
Uncia
Atilax
Bdeogale
Crossarchus
Cynictis
Dologale
Galerella
Helogale
Herpestes
Ichneumia
Liberiictis
Mungos
Paracynictis
Rhynchogale
Suricata
Crocuta
Hyaena
Proteles
Nandinia
Chrotogale
Cynogale
Diplogale
Hemigalus
Arctictis
Arctogalidia
Macrogalidia
Paguma
Paradoxurus
Prionodon
Civettictis
Genetta
Poiana
Viverra
Viverricula
Balaena
Eubalaena
Balaenoptera
Megaptera
Eschrichtius
Caperea
Cephalorhynchus
Delphinus
Feresa
Globicephala
Grampus
Lagenodelphis
Lagenorhynchus
Lissodelphis
Orcaella
Orcinus
Peponocephala
Pseudorca
Sotalia
Sousa
Stenella
Steno
Tursiops
Delphinapterus
Monodon
Neophocaena
Phocoena
Phocoenoides
Inia
Lipotes
Platanista
Pontoporia
Kogia
Physeter
Berardius
Hyperoodon
Indopacetus
Mesoplodon
Tasmacetus
Ziphius
Eonycteris
Macroglossus
Megaloglossus
Notopteris
Syconycteris
Melonycteris
Aethalops
Alionycteris
Balionycteris
Chironax
Cynopterus
Dyacopterus
Haplonycteris
Latidens
Megaerops
Otopteropus
Penthetor
Ptenochirus
Sphaerias
Thoopterus
Nyctimene
Paranyctimene
Casinycteris
Epomophorus
Epomops
Hypsignathus
Micropteropus
Nanonycteris
Plerotes
Scotonycteris
Harpyionycteris
Aproteles
Dobsonia
Acerodon
Desmalopex
Mirimiri
Neopteryx
Pteralopex
Pteropus
Styloctenium
Eidolon
Lissonycteris
Myonycteris
Rousettus
Balantiopteryx
Centronycteris
Coleura
Cormura
Cyttarops
Diclidurus
Emballonura
Mosia
Peropteryx
Rhynchonycteris
Saccopteryx
Saccolaimus
Taphozous
Antrozous
Bauerus
Chaerephon
Cheiromeles
Cynomops
Eumops
Molossops
Molossus
Mops
Mormopterus
Myopterus
Nyctinomops
Otomops
Platymops
Promops
Sauromys
Tadarida
Tomopeas
Amorphochilus
Furipterus
Myzopoda
Chilonatalus
Natalus
Nyctiellus
Thyroptera
Mormoops
Pteronotus
Mystacina
Noctilio
Brachyphylla
Carollia
Rhinophylla
Desmodus
Diaemus
Diphylla
Anoura
Choeroniscus
Choeronycteris
Glossophaga
Hylonycteris
Leptonycteris
Lichonycteris
Monophyllus
Musonycteris
Scleronycteris
Lionycteris
Lonchophylla
Platalina
Xeronycteris
Erophylla
Phyllonycteris
Chrotopterus
Glyphonycteris
Lampronycteris
Lonchorhina
Lophostoma
Macrophyllum
Macrotus
Micronycteris
Mimon
Neonycteris
Phylloderma
Phyllostomus
Tonatia
Trachops
Trinycteris
Vampyrum
Ametrida
Ardops
Ariteus
Artibeus
Centurio
Chiroderma
Ectophylla
Enchisthenes
Mesophylla
Phyllops
Platyrrhinus
Pygoderma
Sphaeronycteris
Stenoderma
Uroderma
Vampyressa
Vampyrodes
Sturnira
Cardioderma
Lavia
Macroderma
Megaderma
Nycteris
Rhinolophus
Anthops
Asellia
Aselliscus
Cloeotis
Coelops
Hipposideros
Paracoelops
Paratriaenops
Rhinonicteris
Triaenops
Craseonycteris
Rhinopoma
Miniopterus
Kerivoula
Phoniscus
Harpiocephalus
Harpiola
Murina
Cistugo
Lasionycteris
Myotis
Arielulus
Eptesicus
Hesperoptenus
Lasiurus
Nycticeinops
Nycticeius
Rhogeessa
Scoteanax
Scotoecus
Scotomanes
Scotophilus
Scotorepens
Nyctophilus
Pharotis
Glischropus
Nyctalus
Parastrellus
Perimyotis
Pipistrellus
Scotozous
Barbastella
Corynorhinus
Euderma
Idionycteris
Otonycteris
Plecotus
Chalinolobus
Eudiscopus
Falsistrellus
Glauconycteris
Histiotus
Hypsugo
Ia
Laephotis
Mimetillus
Neoromicia
Philetor
Tylonycteris
Vespadelus
Vespertilio
Atelerix
Erinaceus
Hemiechinus
Mesechinus
Paraechinus
Echinosorex
Hylomys
Neohylomys
Neotetracus
Podogymnura
Solenodon
Crocidura
Diplomesodon
Feroculus
Paracrocidura
Ruwenzorisorex
Scutisorex
Solisorex
Suncus
Sylvisorex
Congosorex
Myosorex
Surdisorex
Anourosorex
Blarinella
Blarina
Cryptotis
Chimarrogale
Chodsigoa
Episoriculus
Nectogale
Neomys
Soriculus
Megasorex
Notiosorex
Sorex
Condylura
Parascalops
Scalopus
Scapanulus
Scapanus
Desmana
Galemys
Neurotrichus
Scaptonyx
Euroscaptor
Mogera
Parascaptor
Scaptochirus
Talpa
Dymecodon
Urotrichus
Uropsilus
Equus
Ceratotherium
Dicerorhinus
Diceros
Rhinoceros
Tapirus
Manis
Dasypus
Calyptophractus
Chaetophractus
Chlamyphorus
Euphractus
Zaedyus
Cabassous
Priodontes
Tolypeutes
Bradypus
Choloepus
Cyclopes
Myrmecophaga
and that's just modern mammalian genera. Shall we start on the insects?
Reality shows that the creatures always produce what they essentially are. The fossils agree.
Nope.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by mike the wiz, posted 01-03-2012 4:03 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 34 of 188 (646263)
01-03-2012 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by mike the wiz
01-03-2012 3:07 PM


Re: Fun with Strawmen!
mike the wiz writes:
That's fair enough, but I fail to see why these superficial changes are regarded as evolutionary change.
The tiny genetic changes that occur during reproduction are evolutionary because they're hereditary, i.e., passed on to the next generation. Because these genetic changes are hereditary, they accumulate over time.
You used the term "superficial changes", but this isn't a good term for the small genetic differences that occur between parents and offspring. Depending on which nucleotides and where in the genome, a single tiny nucleotide swap can have an effect ranging from none at all to totally fatal.
All we can do is try to be accurate in our description of the nature of the genetic changes that occur from one generation to the next: there are a small number of copying errors, and in sexual species the alleles of the parents come together to form new allele pairs for the genes (there's other things that happen, but let's keep this simple). If we're trying to look forward then that's as accurate as we can be, and there's no way to know if the effect of these small genetic changes that occur during reproduction are going to be none, superficial, a little, a lot, or fatal.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 573 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 35 of 188 (646623)
01-05-2012 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Pressie
12-18-2011 7:20 AM


The essence of argumentation and debate is starting from evidence and using reasoning to come to a conclusion. You guys claim you have all the evidence but you never bother to connect the dots from evidence to conclusion. If you do, the conclusion is not the same from one year to the next. It is a moving goal post. This does not even touch on the fact that the reasoning that you do use is circular more often than not, and when it isn't circular, it is so full of holes it can not hold water.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-05-2012 6:15 PM foreveryoung has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 275 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 36 of 188 (646625)
01-05-2012 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by foreveryoung
01-05-2012 5:57 PM


The essence of argumentation and debate is starting from evidence and using reasoning to come to a conclusion. You guys claim you have all the evidence but you never bother to connect the dots from evidence to conclusion. If you do, the conclusion is not the same from one year to the next. It is a moving goal post. This does not even touch on the fact that the reasoning that you do use is circular more often than not, and when it isn't circular, it is so full of holes it can not hold water.
You are telling falsehoods to us, about us.
Your chances of deceiving us are slim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by foreveryoung, posted 01-05-2012 5:57 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by foreveryoung, posted 01-05-2012 6:18 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 573 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 37 of 188 (646626)
01-05-2012 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Dr Adequate
01-05-2012 6:15 PM


No lies here. I call em as I see em.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-05-2012 6:15 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-05-2012 6:27 PM foreveryoung has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 275 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 38 of 188 (646627)
01-05-2012 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by foreveryoung
01-05-2012 6:18 PM


No lies here.
That's why I deliberately used the word "falsehood", rather than lie; I am doing you the doubtful courtesy of supposing that you really are deluded enough to believe what you're saying.
I call em as I see em.
No. You call them as you believe them; your delusions, being counterfactual, can of course have nothing to do with what you have seen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by foreveryoung, posted 01-05-2012 6:18 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by foreveryoung, posted 01-05-2012 8:40 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 573 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 39 of 188 (646649)
01-05-2012 8:38 PM


from my huge problem with creationist thinking
The following is from Dr Adequate on that closed thread.
No-one's out there trying to find evidence that snakes could once talk,
Perhaps snakes didn't talk through speech with sound waves. Ever considered that possibility? The spiritual realm was intermeshed with the physical realm at that time. Christians still communicate with God spiritually today, even though no audible speech is used.

Replies to this message:
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foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 573 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 40 of 188 (646651)
01-05-2012 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Dr Adequate
01-05-2012 6:27 PM


Give me one delusion that is counterfactual. Every claim I made was a result of my personal experience with atheists and theistic evolutionists over the past 3 years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-05-2012 6:27 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-05-2012 9:00 PM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 43 by Percy, posted 01-06-2012 9:16 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 275 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 41 of 188 (646652)
01-05-2012 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by foreveryoung
01-05-2012 8:38 PM


Re: from my huge problem with creationist thinking
No-one's out there trying to find evidence that snakes could once talk,
Perhaps snakes didn't talk through speech with sound waves. Ever considered that possibility?
I did not specify talking "through speech with sound waves", just talking.
And unless someone's out there looking for evidence that snakes used to be able to talk telepathically, then I hardly see the relevance of your question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by foreveryoung, posted 01-05-2012 8:38 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 275 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 42 of 188 (646654)
01-05-2012 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by foreveryoung
01-05-2012 8:40 PM


Here are six:
(1) You guys claim you have all the evidence but you never bother to connect the dots from evidence to conclusion. (2) If you do, the conclusion is not the same from one year to the next. (3) It is a moving goal post. (4) This does not even touch on the fact that (5) the reasoning that you do use is circular more often than not, (6) and when it isn't circular, it is so full of holes it can not hold water.
Even you must be able to detect some degree of falsehood in there, since you move directly from asserting that we never do something to making assertions about how we do so when we do.
Every claim I made was a result of my personal experience with atheists and theistic evolutionists over the past 3 years.
But perhaps you overestimate your capacity to detect circular reasoning and arguments with holes in: this would explain why you make false statements on this subject and why you are a creationist.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by foreveryoung, posted 01-05-2012 8:40 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 43 of 188 (646701)
01-06-2012 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by foreveryoung
01-05-2012 8:40 PM


foreveryoung writes:
Give me one delusion that is counterfactual.
From your previous message:
foreveryoung in Mesage 39 writes:
Perhaps snakes didn't talk through speech with sound waves. Ever considered that possibility? The spiritual realm was intermeshed with the physical realm at that time. Christians still communicate with God spiritually today, even though no audible speech is used.
From an even earlier message from you:
foreveryoung in Message 35 writes:
The essence of argumentation and debate is starting from evidence and using reasoning to come to a conclusion.
You should practice what you preach.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by foreveryoung, posted 01-05-2012 8:40 PM foreveryoung has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 01-06-2012 9:23 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 44 of 188 (646704)
01-06-2012 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Percy
01-06-2012 9:16 AM


Let's look at the evidence.
Speaking of evidence and talking snakes, back in Message 24 in 2006 I posted this evidence.
quote:
Associated Scientific Press 11-05-06 16:42 Patagonia, Argentina: Historia Compuesta
It's been reported that scientists working on the newly discovered species, Najash rionegrina, used an MRI on the remains. Early indications show a completely developed larynx of surprising sophistication, far more mammalian than any seen in any serpents.
Dr Jesus Me'Deocre Falsificado said, off the record, that the one thing that was most surprising was that it was almost as though the mucosa had been removed. "Without the mucosa the creature would have been unable to utter even a sound. However, we are planning additional MRI and Cat Scans and there may be indications of a vestigial mucosa."
The findings will be published in a future edition of Historia Compuesta.
I have not found any followup to this announcement.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Percy, posted 01-06-2012 9:16 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 4151 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 45 of 188 (652618)
02-15-2012 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Percy
01-03-2012 7:43 AM


quote:
I expect your answer will be that your examination of the evidence drives your conclusions, so I would then ask what evidence you see that suggests small changes do not eventually accumulate into significant ones.
I will again anticipate your answer and guess that you will assert that new organs or body plans or limbs cannot form gradually because half an organ or limb is of no use, in which case I would ask why you think such a thing could ever happen, why you think harmful or useless characteristics like half an organ or limb would be selected by natural selection.
Genetic mutations are mostly harmful. The beneficial ones are relatively minor changes with no evidence they can produce new species. Its easy to explain how the beak of a finch changed when it experienced a new environment, but that does not remotely illustrate a process capable of making finches in the first place.
Can you give me an example of how small changes can turn a shrew into a human?

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Percy, posted 01-03-2012 7:43 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-15-2012 5:23 AM Portillo has not replied
 Message 47 by Panda, posted 02-15-2012 5:50 AM Portillo has not replied
 Message 48 by Panda, posted 02-15-2012 6:13 AM Portillo has replied
 Message 49 by Wounded King, posted 02-15-2012 7:14 AM Portillo has not replied
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 02-15-2012 10:17 AM Portillo has replied

  
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