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Author Topic:   Detecting Intelligence - SETI and ID Compared
Rahvin
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Posts: 4024
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


Message 7 of 46 (644926)
12-21-2011 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
12-21-2011 1:47 PM


SETI seems to be looking for a Human or Human like technology. While it may wee also detect intelligence, it would likely only detect human like intelligence and even only a very small subset of human like intelligence.
It is not looking for "intelligence" in general but only the very narrowly defined intelligence of a human like technological system.
The question is more "if SETI finds a signal, are the criteria they use valid for distinguishing between intelligent vs non-intelligent sources."
I think we all agree that SETI is limited in its detection ability to signals sent via means of which we are aware, like broadcast signals in the electromagnetic spectrum. SETI cannot possibly detect confined point-to-point transmissions like laser signals, and we can't hear what we don't know to listen for.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 12-21-2011 1:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 12-21-2011 4:41 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4024
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


Message 14 of 46 (644956)
12-21-2011 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
12-21-2011 5:53 PM


My question is could it detect something as being intelligent if the other thing was totally alien to our current technology? Is SETI defining intelligence as "just like us"?
SETI has to limit their search to those methods of signal generation that we can detect with our technology. If aliens are using "subspace transmissions" or something else we've never heard of outside of scifi, well, we have no way to detect that as of right now.
However, the electromagnetic spectrum is very easy to use for signal broadcasting. There are very good reasons we use the EM band for our own communications, after all. Any signal used for communication would have to stand out against background radiation, and so would have to be relatively narrow-band. Direct point-to-point line-of-sight tight-beam communication methods, like lasers, would of course be undetectable to us in any case - only the source and the destination would see it, unless we just happen to wind up crossing the path of the tiny laser beam with a detector at exactly the right moment; which is to say they're undetectable to us in any case.
Sure, aliens might be using gravity waves or neutrinos for communication, but that sounds rather difficult to generate and detect, while the EM band is nice and easy, and still gets the job done. Faster-than-light communication is, so far as we can predict, impossible regardless of technology, and EM travels at light speed in a vacuum...basically, either aliens communicate via broadcasts in the EM spectrum, or alines don't communicate, or aliens of the right technological level don't exist, or aliens deliberately try to hide their transmissions from detection, or we need a major paradigm shift in our understanding of physics to even imagine the technique aliens are using for communication.
Any alien species is going to be working within the same laws of physics we are. Any significantly intelligent species is very likely to develop methods of communication beyond the up-close-and-personal old fashioned way. Any species that attempts to develop methods of communication is likely to eventually zone in on the EM band, because EM waves are easy to generate, they propagate well through an atmosphere and through space, and they're easy to detect and decipher. The similarities are not going to be driven by an alien species similarity to us, but rather by the fact that we live in the same Universe and have to work within similar environments.
From what I understand, SETI isn;t looking for anything about the intelligence, that is, they aren't trying to find something "like us" except for the ability and inclination to make obviously artificial signals powerful enough to be transmitted over interstellar distances.
Please note that that low bar allows for an awful lot of room for interpretation of the term "intelligence." An intelligent actor does not need to be even remotely like us; it doesn't even have to be sentient. The similarities required are only that they have the need or desire to communicate, and that they discover the EM spectrum and ways to use it for communication.
I'm not even sure how best to define "intelligence." I suppose the basics would be "any entity with decision-making capabilities," meaning different responses to different stimuli. That would range the spectrum from non-intelligent rocks, which don't respond to any stimuli, to basic life like plants, that respond to very limited stimuli, all the way up to humans, who can respond to even abstract stimuli like language.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 12-21-2011 5:53 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 12-21-2011 7:47 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4024
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


Message 16 of 46 (644958)
12-21-2011 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
12-21-2011 7:47 PM


Re: a critter like us
We also know that at least two other species that use broadcast transmission for communication use methods and technology that would not be detectable across even interplanetary distances.
So again, SETI is not so much looking for "intelligence" as for "intelligence that is like us".
That's the thing, Jar - only the EM spectrum, so far as we know, can be used to communicate at even planetary distances (excluding methods that are ridiculously difficult, like neutrino transmission and detection). Want to send a message from Australia to the UK? You use the EM band and a satellite relay, or else you lay a LOT of cable, or you send a courier. That's it.
It's not about being "like us." It's a problem that any species will need to overcome in order to communicate at reasonable distances.
That means that any suitably intelligent species will at some point be almost certain to use the EM spectrum for communication. Unless that species is significantly concerned about security for all communication (perhaps they became paranoid about alien intelligence before establishing global communication and so restricted all EM communication to narrow-beam to prevent anyone from "hearing" them right from the start, etc), those transmissions will be broadcast. If they use a decent level of power (on the order you'd need to transmit signals to distant locations on the same planet), those broadcasts will be detectable at interplanetary distances.
You're hanging on to this "like us" nonsense, but it's just that - nonsense. The EM spectrum is an easy method of fast communication that any suitably intelligent species is likely to be aware of.
SETI isn't "the search for extraterrestrial life," it's the search for extraterrestrial intelligence, meaning intelligence on a similar or higher level than our own. Yes, whales can communicate over large distances though sound waves. They are not a technologically based species, they are not human-similar in intelligence, they aren't what SETI is looking for in the first place. That intelligence may (and almost certainly will be) significantly different from our own, but given that the aliens will face the same Universe we face, they're likely to use similar technological means to overcome challenges like long-range communication. We aren't looking for interstellar bacteria that bioluminesce to communicate the presence of food or a predator, we're looking for extraterrestrial intelligence capable of abstract thought and communication.
If your definition of "like us" is so broad as to include all technologically aware species, I think you need to re-evaluate your definition of what it means to be an alien intelligence. Just because another species is likely to build a radio transmitter doesn't mean it will look or think anything like a human being.
Again, it's not a "like us" question. We simply face the same Universe and will need to overcome the same problems, and there are a limited number of solutions to problems like communication over large distances. One is easy and effective and within our capacity to detect, so we're looking for that method.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 12-21-2011 7:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 12-21-2011 8:16 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4024
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


Message 26 of 46 (645032)
12-22-2011 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
12-22-2011 12:01 PM


Re: a critter like us
How many species have used the EM spectrum that we know about?
...
How many human-level intelligent species do we know about?
Come on, Jar. The whole point of SET is to discover if we are alone in the Universe. Obviously the currently-known set of species is currently confined to our own, that's the entire point!
We aren't looking for space whales or intergalactic cockroaches or stellar orangutans or gas-giant jellyfish. We're looking for intelligent life. We won't detect space cavemen or Romulans that send all transmissions via tight-band because they're paranoid or Wookies who use hyperspace relays we don't think are even possible for communication, but we should be able to find a very wide spectrum of intelligent life (presuming it exists at all) by listening to the EM spectrum simply because it's the easiest method for fast communication over even intercontinental distances allowed by the laws of physics and it lends itself easily to broadcast as opposed to being limited to tight-band only.
Your definition of "like us" is literally so broad as to include all conceivable species that use technology to communicate, as opposed to space whales. There could be silicon-based eyeless exoskeletal xenomorphs out there with acid blood transmitting who knows what to each other, or metallic evolved electronic-based entities from Cybertron that developed a planet-wide interconnected network requiring satellite relays to get around line-of-sight, aliens need not be anything remotely like us except that they want to communicate over large distances even on their own planet and happen to reside in the same Universe we do.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 12-22-2011 12:01 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 12-22-2011 2:56 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
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