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Author Topic:   Are Multiverses possible?
hsweet
Junior Member (Idle past 1870 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 31 of 69 (645431)
12-26-2011 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
12-26-2011 10:48 PM


Re: non physical universes
We are going around in circles. A fundamental concept is that there is the concrete and the descriptive. There is the real and it's fantasy variations. There is the language of relationships.

Love, for example, is not an absolute concrete thing but, instead is referential to the relationship, for example, between a man and a woman.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 12-26-2011 10:48 PM jar has responded

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 Message 34 by jar, posted 12-26-2011 11:11 PM hsweet has responded

    
nwr
Member
Posts: 5519
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 32 of 69 (645432)
12-26-2011 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by hsweet
12-26-2011 10:07 PM


Re: mathematics
hsweet writes:
Isn't mathematics ultimately relational to the physical?

No, there's a lot that isn't.

Hilbert's Hotel
the first uncountable ordinal
infinite dimensional vector spaces
p-adic number system
nowhere differentiable functions
Stone–Čech compactifications

We study lots of weird stuff.


Christianity claims the moral high ground it its rhetoric. It has long since abandoned the moral high ground in its practices

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by hsweet, posted 12-26-2011 11:09 PM nwr has responded
 Message 48 by cavediver, posted 12-27-2011 6:24 AM nwr has responded

  
hsweet
Junior Member (Idle past 1870 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 33 of 69 (645433)
12-26-2011 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by nwr
12-26-2011 11:01 PM


Re: mathematics
I have to admit ignorance here; my math education only took me through 4 years of high school math and a smattering of it in college. Interestingly enough, I never needed anything professionally that I didn't learn in grammar school. On the other hand, I did use intermediate algebra, logarithms and trigonometry in my hobby.

What can you do to make things meaningful to me?


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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 28822
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 34 of 69 (645434)
12-26-2011 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by hsweet
12-26-2011 10:58 PM


Re: non physical universes
Nonsense.

I did not say love between a man or a woman, I said "love". "Love", the Platonic form.

Beauty, the Platonic form.

Honor, the Platonic form.

In addition I mentioned other things that cannot exist, the absolutely straight line, the infinite sequence ...


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by hsweet, posted 12-26-2011 10:58 PM hsweet has responded

Replies to this message:
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hsweet
Junior Member (Idle past 1870 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 35 of 69 (645435)
12-26-2011 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by jar
12-26-2011 11:11 PM


Re: non physical universes
Abstractions eventually become relative. Beauty is not descriptive of no thing.

A line is a concept but is relational to a plane which, in turn, is relational to a solid which exists in reality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 12-26-2011 11:11 PM jar has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 28822
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 36 of 69 (645436)
12-26-2011 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by hsweet
12-26-2011 11:17 PM


Re: non physical universes
Learn to read.

I did not say they were no thing, I said they are things I can imagine that do not exist.

Do you know about Platonic Forms?

Do you understand that a perfectly straight line is not simply a line?

Do you know what an infinite sequence is?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15922
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 37 of 69 (645437)
12-26-2011 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by hsweet
12-26-2011 8:49 PM


Re: multiple big bangs ?
Dr Adaquate, We can not intellectually understand any possible physical reality outside of our universe due to the limitations of our intellects. Human intellect evolved so that we could navigate within the relative universe of space, time, matter and energy so anything else that might possibly exist is beyond our capability.

When we try to think 'outside the universe', we only project what is inside the universe to that 'realm' -- that's all that we can do. My argument is that whatever it is that is non-universe can't be what is within the universe otherwise there would be no distinction between the two.

Well ...

When we talk about "other universes" in the context of the Inflation Hypothesis, we do mean just more spacetime and energy and matter, having a common origin with our own universe.

What makes them "other universes" is causality: the geometry of spacetime is such that what's in the other universes can't affect what's in our universe, and vice versa. It's not that there's (necessarily) an essential qualitative distinction between this universe and the next, just that they're causally isolated from one another.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by hsweet, posted 12-26-2011 8:49 PM hsweet has responded

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Portillo
Member (Idle past 1568 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 38 of 69 (645438)
12-26-2011 11:34 PM


Yes they are possible. The problem is there isnt a shred of evidence that another universe exists.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15922
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 39 of 69 (645439)
12-26-2011 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Portillo
12-26-2011 11:34 PM


Yes they are possible. The problem is there isnt a shred of evidence that another universe exists.

There are, in fact, shreds of evidence.

I've referred to the Inflationary Hypothesis. There is some evidence that this is correct. If it is correct, then other universes are a corollary of its correctness.

---

I suppose another piece of evidence, though I'm not sure how much weight we should attach to this, is that it's extremely rare for there to be only one of anything. Can you think of a particular thing which is also the only instance of its type?

For some reason I am more hesitant to reason inductively on the basis of this observation than I usually am, and I don't quite understand the reason for my hesitance --- I just have a vague feeling that it might not be satisfactory.


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hsweet
Junior Member (Idle past 1870 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 40 of 69 (645440)
12-26-2011 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Dr Adequate
12-26-2011 11:30 PM


Re: multiple big bangs ?
OK. hypothetical to the hilt, though as with no possible interaction, that leaves us out of the picture.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-26-2011 11:30 PM Dr Adequate has responded

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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15922
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 41 of 69 (645443)
12-26-2011 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by hsweet
12-26-2011 11:42 PM


Re: multiple big bangs ?
OK. hypothetical to the hilt, though as with no possible interaction, that leaves us out of the picture.

Well, they needn't remain hypothetical, as I pointed out to Portillo.

If we can establish strong evidence for the mechanism by which our universe began, and if the mechanism for which we have evidence implies the existence of other universes, then we would in fact have evidence for their existence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by hsweet, posted 12-26-2011 11:42 PM hsweet has responded

Replies to this message:
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hsweet
Junior Member (Idle past 1870 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 42 of 69 (645445)
12-27-2011 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Dr Adequate
12-26-2011 11:57 PM


Re: multiple big bangs ?
Talk about healthy undertakings! Good Luck.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-26-2011 11:57 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-27-2011 12:10 AM hsweet has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15922
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 43 of 69 (645446)
12-27-2011 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by hsweet
12-27-2011 12:00 AM


Re: multiple big bangs ?
Talk about healthy undertakings! Good Luck.

It's no use wishing me good luck, I'm not a physicist.

Certainly it looks as though some version of the I.H. might well be true. Will we ever know enough to say that it definitely is true? I don't know.

But the mere fact that we can entertain the idea does seem to undermine any attempt on your part to rule out other universes a priori.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by hsweet, posted 12-27-2011 12:00 AM hsweet has responded

Replies to this message:
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hsweet
Junior Member (Idle past 1870 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 44 of 69 (645447)
12-27-2011 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Dr Adequate
12-27-2011 12:10 AM


Re: multiple big bangs ?
Perhaps far out might be more correct than rule out.

It's when we start hearing other universe descriptions presented as an alternative to the anthropic that we start seeing science getting edgy about religion.

Eastern time here. Time to quit for the night.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-27-2011 12:10 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5519
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 45 of 69 (645448)
12-27-2011 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by hsweet
12-26-2011 11:09 PM


Re: mathematics
hsweet writes:
What can you do to make things meaningful to me?

That probably can't be done, without you spending some time learning higher math.

In any case, my point is made. I have no difficulty conceiving of things, and finding rich meaning in them, but things that you do not even find meaningful


Christianity claims the moral high ground it its rhetoric. It has long since abandoned the moral high ground in its practices

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by hsweet, posted 12-26-2011 11:09 PM hsweet has not yet responded

  
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