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Author Topic:   How did the Aborigines get to Australia?
Percy
Member
Posts: 15918
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 151 of 226 (652806)
02-16-2012 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Chuck77
02-16-2012 2:37 AM


Re: Sedimentology, Something Else You Don't Know About
Chuck77 writes:

Wrong concerning who? We have sources that say different. Maybe it is you who are wrong? Hmmmmm...

This thread is your opportunity to present evidence and argument for your position.

--Percy


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Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 464 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 152 of 226 (667610)
07-10-2012 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by RAZD
12-30-2011 9:29 AM


My favorite "doozy"
RAZD writes:

Science answer: they evolved there.
Creationist answer: ? (careful - I've heard some doozies)

Just found and read through this older thread, and wanted to share one of my favorites from the Northwest Creation Network as I hadn't seen it presented here. While I can give the author some credit for originality, I do want to caution that reading the article while consuming liquids could result in damage to keyboard and moniter. Here is the link: http://nwcreation.net/marsupials.html

The author, Chris Ashcraft, suggests that the famous examples of placental/marsupial "twins" (thylacine/wolf, marsupial mole/golden mole, etc.) are actually the result of the original placental 'baramin' evolving pouches after they arrived in Australia. So the marsupial mole is of the same 'kind' as the placental mole, they just (through God-given genetic plasticity) adapted to Australia's harsh climate by micro-evolving a pouch. As did all of the other marsupials in Australia that are analogs of placental 'kinds'.

Some explanation:

Chris Ashcraft writes:

At times when survival has become difficult and the death rates of mothers and children are high, the marsupial mode of reproduction may prevent high mortality rates from affecting the death of the other. Under severe environmental stress when giving birth earlier becomes advantageous for the success of the population, then the marsupial reproductive mode may be selectable from the natural variation that exists within the timing and developmental rates of these events.

And this gem:

Likewise not all marsupials have a permanent pouch and a few have none at all. There is clearly natural variability of the features which distinguish the placentals from marsupials. These variations are produced by genetic recombination, and performed in attempt to specialize the organism to specific conditions. The presence of variability within the features that distinguish the placental from marsupial suggests the ability to change from one mode to another. Although many modifications would be required, in particular those that alter the gestation rate, placental and pouch development have been established as active.

And, of course, no good hypothesis can exist without a plausible cause:

It could therefore be proposed that the marsupial reproductive system can evolve from the placental method, and has done so numerous times during the evolutionary history of mammals. One possible factor effecting all who passed into Australia would be the equatorial crossing following their release from the ark in Turkey. The mammals which arrived in Australia would have been the first to cross the equator, and probably when environmental extremes were exceptional. It is possible that this evolutionary adaptation can be forced upon animals during times of severe stress or when mother/offspring mortality reaches high frequencies

Before we dismiss this hypothesis too quickly, it is important to take into consideration the effects crossing the equator could have. I think it stands as a point of historical fact that crossing the Galactic Barrier caused Lieutenant Commander Gary Mitchell to develop extreme psychic abilities...

Just a note: I recognize that this is by no means the mainstream creationist viewpoint, I just thought it topical.

Edited by Lithodid-Man, : Misspelled Ashcraft's name!

Edited by Lithodid-Man, : Fixed link


Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

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Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 7141
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 153 of 226 (667632)
07-10-2012 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Lithodid-Man
07-10-2012 1:12 PM


Re: My favorite "doozy"
The author, Chris Ashcraft, suggests that the famous examples of placental/marsupial "twins" (thylacine/wolf, marsupial mole/golden mole, etc.) are actually the result of the original placental 'baramin' evolving pouches after they arrived in Australia. So the marsupial mole is of the same 'kind' as the placental mole, they just (through God-given genetic plasticity) adapted to Australia's harsh climate by micro-evolving a pouch. As did all of the other marsupials in Australia that are analogs of placental 'kinds'.

This would pose a serious problem when genomes are compared. The DNA of the tasmanian wolf is much more like that of kangaroos than it is the placental wolf. This is true of all marsupials. Creationists would have to agree that microevolution is capable of producing genetic distances several fold higher than that seen between humans and chimps.


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Panda
Member (Idle past 1246 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 154 of 226 (667640)
07-10-2012 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Lithodid-Man
07-10-2012 1:12 PM


Re: My favorite "doozy"
Lithodid-Man writes:

It is possible that this evolutionary adaptation can be forced upon animals during times of severe stress or when mother/offspring mortality reaches high frequencies


I hope someone has told the Tasmanian devils...
http://en.wikipedia.org/...devil#Devil_facial_tumour_disease

CRYSTALS!!

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Portillo
Member (Idle past 1694 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 155 of 226 (669437)
07-30-2012 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Larni
02-15-2012 4:51 AM


Re: Dates, evidence, and opinions
Evidence for the flood is seen in the fossils. Thats how fossils are made, with water and sediment. Trillions of beautifully preserved fossils, all over the world. Why are fossils evidence of flooding? Because they were buried so rapidly, that they couldnt oxidize, decay or be destroyed by predators. Every part of the world, you can see these fossils. When you see billions of fossils buried in one strata. What do you think happened to these animals, did they all die from natural causes at the same time or were they buried with a huge mass of sediment saturated water, smashed and preserved.

Granny Magda writes:

If fossils exist as a result of the great flood, we would see far more terrestrial animals in the sediments than we do. We ought to see many land-based animals mixed in with the marine. The fact that we generally see marine creatures in marine sediments and freshwater fossils in freshwater sediments ought to tell you that those sediments record a living ecosystem, that layed down its fossils over a period of years, not in a single catastrophic event. And fossils are buried in discrete layers that place the most ancient species at the bottom and the most recent at the top. Can you tell me how a flood would do that? Can you tell me how a flood could put all the trilobites toward the bottom of the pile, but leave all the whales close to the top?

The neat fossil record chart that is seen in textbooks doesnt actually exist anywhere on the planet. You find polystrate fossils on every continent. You find horseshoe crabs, shrimps and clams at the top of mountains. Bottom dwelling animals at 20,000 feet about sea level. In Cumberland Bone Cave, you find massive graveyards of animals from the tropics and artics. Climate animals like bats, reptiles, birds, mastodons and mammals. From land to sea animals, the tropics and artics, all together and buried.

Percy writes:

A flood would jumble everything up instead of producing a progression of gradual change.

Good question. If there was a global flood, why dont we find fossils mixed up, such as humans, horses and cows at the bottom? The question is though, do humans, horses and cows live at the bottom of the ocean? What you would expect to find is fossils buried in their habitat, although you do find marine fossils on continents. When a catastrophe such as a tornado, earthquake, or flood happens, who knows first, the animals or people? The animals usually know whats coming, so they get out of there.

During the Indian Ocean Tsunami, even though the lives of 250,000 people were destroyed, few animals were killed. You know why? Because the animals had a premonition of the coming catastrophe and fled for the hills. But which animals cant get out of there? The corals, sponges, hydroids, arthropods, sea anemones, crustaceans, and all the little bottom dwelling animals who cant get away. The reason why land animals were able to get away is because the flood took months and months, as the waters came higher and higher. So many drowned and werent fossilized.


Can thine heart endure or can thine hands be strong, in the days that I shall deal with thee? I the Lord have spoken it and will do it. - Ezekial 22:14

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Replies to this message:
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Panda
Member (Idle past 1246 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 156 of 226 (669446)
07-30-2012 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Portillo
07-30-2012 4:03 AM


Re: Dates, evidence, and opinions
Is there any point in anyone replying to your posts?

Are you going to actually stay and debate your position or will you just run away as usual?

Portillo writes:

The question is though, do humans, horses and cows live at the bottom of the ocean?


Where do you think that the people drowned in a flood would live?

Portillo writes:

Thats how fossils are made, with water and sediment.


Cool - you have researched fossils.
Could you tell me: how long do fossils take to form?

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 157 of 226 (669449)
07-30-2012 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Portillo
07-30-2012 4:03 AM


Re: Dates, evidence, and opinions
Evidence for the flood is seen in the fossils. Thats how fossils are made, with water and sediment. Trillions of beautifully preserved fossils, all over the world. Why are fossils evidence of flooding? Because they were buried so rapidly, that they couldnt oxidize, decay or be destroyed by predators.

Fossils with soft-tissue preservation are in fact extremely rare. Intact skeletons not dismembered by predators or scavengers are also rather rare. Decay and dismemberment is in fact the usual fate of fossils. So how about you come up with an explanation for the fossil record that actually exists?

The neat fossil record chart that is seen in textbooks doesnt actually exist anywhere on the planet. You find polystrate fossils on every continent. You find horseshoe crabs, shrimps and clams at the top of mountains. Bottom dwelling animals at 20,000 feet about sea level. In Cumberland Bone Cave, you find massive graveyards of animals from the tropics and artics. Climate animals like bats, reptiles, birds, mastodons and mammals. From land to sea animals, the tropics and artics, all together and buried.

You seem unaware both of the nature of the fossil record and of what geologists say about it.

Good question. If there was a global flood, why dont we find fossils mixed up, such as humans, horses and cows at the bottom? The question is though, do humans, horses and cows live at the bottom of the ocean? What you would expect to find is fossils buried in their habitat, although you do find marine fossils on continents. When a catastrophe such as a tornado, earthquake, or flood happens, who knows first, the animals or people? The animals usually know whats coming, so they get out of there.

You still don't seem to have explained the Law of Faunal Succession. Try harder.

Why, for example, do we never see a dinosaur and a modern mammal in the same stratum?

During the Indian Ocean Tsunami, even though the lives of 250,000 people were destroyed, few animals were killed.

Evidence?


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18974
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 158 of 226 (669454)
07-30-2012 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Portillo
07-30-2012 4:03 AM


Re: Dates, evidence, and opinions
Hi Portillo

Not really about Aborigines getting to Australia but ...

... Thats how fossils are made, with water and sediment. ...

How do you explain dessicated fossils aka naturally formed mummies?

... You find horseshoe crabs, shrimps and clams at the top of mountains. ...

... in layers showing multiple layers of mature growth deposited over thousands of years based on the maturity of the individual organisms fossilized.

How long did that flood last?

Why are there completely different marine ecologies on different mountains?

See Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood?:

quote:
Evidence of multiple layers of mature marine environments on mountains is rather evidence of long ages -- ages to form mature marine environments, ages to cover them, ages for the other mature marine environments to form, and ages for the sedimentary basin to be pushed up into mountains by tectonic activity.

This thread is currently closed due to topic drift but can be reopened to discuss this further if you wish.

Seems to me that this is actually evidence against a biblical flood not for it, that even one sessile marine fossil (brachiopod for instance) with more than one year of maturity would conflict with a biblical flood, and this is a generally observed condition in many many layers -- care to explain?

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18974
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 159 of 226 (669473)
07-30-2012 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Lithodid-Man
07-10-2012 1:12 PM


Re: My favorite "doozy"
Hi Lithodid-Man

... The author, Chris Ashcraft, suggests that the famous examples of placental/marsupial "twins" (thylacine/wolf, marsupial mole/golden mole, etc.) are actually the result of the original placental 'baramin' evolving pouches after they arrived in Australia. ...

So that's why the aboriginal people and emus have pouches, I always wondered ...

LOL


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2321
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 160 of 226 (669483)
07-30-2012 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Portillo
07-30-2012 4:03 AM


Re: Dates, evidence, and opinions
Hi Portillo,

Trillions of beautifully preserved fossils, all over the world.

As an amateur fossil collector myself, I can tell you that this view of fossil preservation is naive. By far the majority of fossils are horribly preserved. Only a minority could be described as "beautifully preserved".

The neat fossil record chart that is seen in textbooks doesnt actually exist anywhere on the planet.

The fossil bed that I was looking through this last weekend was fairly neat. It was a shale bed containing Carboniferous plant fossils. Ferns, seed ferns, lycopsid tree roots... but no angiosperms, no flowering plants. Why would this be? One plant would be affected by flooding in much the same way as any other, so why do we not see flowering plants until about two hundred million years later? Why do we never see them in Carboniferous rocks?

You find polystrate fossils on every continent.

But only in very specific circumstances, where the sediments were lain down very rapidly. Not all strata formed over millennia, some formed much quicker. Geologists can tell the difference you know.

The real question for you is, if there was a global flood, why there are not many more polystrate tree fossils. A flood would have produced such fossils almost everywhere. Instead we see them only in a few scattered locations.

In Cumberland Bone Cave, you find massive graveyards of animals from the tropics and artics. Climate animals like bats, reptiles, birds, mastodons and mammals. From land to sea animals, the tropics and artics, all together and buried.

Care to back that up with some documentation? I'm particularly curious to see what you mean by both land and sea creatures being present.

Good question. If there was a global flood, why dont we find fossils mixed up, such as humans, horses and cows at the bottom? The question is though, do humans, horses and cows live at the bottom of the ocean?

No they don't. But trilobites do and so do modern crabs. Why do we only see trilobites before the End Permian Extinction? Why do we not see modern-looking crabs before the Jurassic? Why do we never, ever see crabs and trilobites in the same stratum? They would have shared the same habitat after all, so how could a flood be responsible for fossilising them separately?

During the Indian Ocean Tsunami, even though the lives of 250,000 people were destroyed, few animals were killed. You know why? Because the animals had a premonition of the coming catastrophe and fled for the hills. But which animals cant get out of there? The corals, sponges, hydroids, arthropods, sea anemones, crustaceans, and all the little bottom dwelling animals who cant get away.

So why do we see corals in all from the most modern deposits back to the Precambrian? And why do we only see modern crustaceans like crabs and lobsters in later deposits?

Of course, I can tell you exactly how that happens, but I'm interested to hear your version of events.

Mutate and Survive


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jar
Member
Posts: 29365
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 161 of 226 (669500)
07-30-2012 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Portillo
07-30-2012 4:03 AM


Cumberland Bone Cave
The Cumberland Bone Cave is interesting, but neither much of a mystery or any evidence for the Biblical Flood. Your problem seems to be believing what you've been told by parents, teachers or pastors, but there is lots you could learn that is factual.

You can learn a lot about Cumberland Cave here.

Of course the very existence of Cumberland Cave is a pretty strong refutation of any idea that the Earth is young and is of course totally irrelevant to the topic of this thread.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 2956
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


(3)
Message 162 of 226 (669503)
07-30-2012 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Portillo
07-30-2012 4:03 AM


Re: Dates, evidence, and opinions
First you write:
You find horseshoe crabs, shrimps and clams at the top of mountains. Bottom dwelling animals at 20,000 feet about sea level.

And then you write:
The question is though, do humans, horses and cows live at the bottom of the ocean? What you would expect to find is fossils buried in their habitat, although you do find marine fossils on continents.

So bottom-dwelling animals lived on mountain tops at 20,000 feet above sea level? That's the completely and utterly idiotic claim that you just made.

Which illustrates quite clearly how much credance to give to your rehash of silly creationist nonsense.

When a catastrophe such as a tornado, earthquake, or flood happens, who knows first, the animals or people? The animals usually know whats coming, so they get out of there.

Not only the animals, but also the plants! The trees and flowering plants saw the Flood coming and they ran up the mountains to higher ground.

Portillo, you really need to actually learn something and to stop relying on stupid creationist lies.


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Portillo
Member (Idle past 1694 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 163 of 226 (669853)
08-04-2012 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Panda
07-30-2012 5:09 AM


Re: Dates, evidence, and opinions
Panda writes:

Could you tell me: how long do fossils take to form?

Fish dont float to the bottom of the ocean and are fossilized over millions of years. They are annihilated by scavengers before they hit the ground. Natures way of stopping the ocean bottoms from becoming huge garbage dumps. How long do fossils take to form? They are entombed by a catastrophe very rapidly, so they dont have a chance to decay or be eaten by scavengers. A global flood is a mechanism for rapid, massive, fossilization of billions of creatures.

RAZD writes:

How do you explain dessicated fossils aka naturally formed mummies?

There are some fossils being formed today, but large scale fossilization is not occuring anywhere in the world. Dr. Dana Desone, said "While dinosaurs were the most famous organisms to become extinct at the end of the cretaceous. The tragedy was far more widespread. 65 to 75% of all earths organisms vanished. Hardest hit were the land animals. In all although 88% of the land dwelling species vanished, as many 90% of those inhabiting fresh water survived. Marine organisms were not spared, almost 50% of the marine species died off. Without question, the KT extinctions were a global disaster of unimaginable proportions." Where on earth do we find extinction-catastrophe events happening like this today?

A mountain range in Southern California has 10 billion fossils, in Wyoming there is trillions of fossilized animals and vegetation, millions of wooly mammoths buried, preserved and frozen in time in Siberia. Dr. Ivan Sanderson said about the mammoths, "First the mammoth was upright, but it had a broken hip. Second, its exterior was whole and perfect, with none of its two-foot long shaggy fur rubbed or torn off. Third, it was fresh; its parts, although they started to rot when the heat of fire got at them, were just as they had been in life; the stomach contents had not begun to decompose. Finally, there were buttercups on its tongue." In the Karoo formation in South Africa, there are millions of vetebrates, ripped apart and thrown in heaps. Massive fossil graveyards all over the world. If your going to explain an event in the past, you have to invoke a cause which is known to produce the effect in question. What is the effect that causes mass death and fossilization? Floods, earthquakes, tsunamis, tidal waves, and meteor strikes, ripping up the continental shelfs. You end up with incredible evidence of mass death, flooding and catastrophe.

dwise writes:

So bottom-dwelling animals lived on mountain tops at 20,000 feet above sea level?

The mountains were underwater during the flood. How did these fossils get thousands of feet above sea level? They didnt climb up the mountain and bury themselves. They were smashed and entombed, under the ocean in mud, and pushed up after the flood. After the flood, the mountains went up and the basins went down. So you have a complete reconfiguration of the topography and geography of the world. Catastrophe "may do more in an hour or a day than the ordinary processes of nature have achieved in a thousand years."


Can thine heart endure or can thine hands be strong, in the days that I shall deal with thee? I the Lord have spoken it and will do it. - Ezekial 22:14

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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1679
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.3


(1)
Message 164 of 226 (669854)
08-04-2012 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Portillo
08-04-2012 12:48 AM


Re: Dates, evidence, and opinions
millions of wooly mammoths buried, preserved and frozen in time in Siberia.

Evidence of this? Specifically the claim of "millions" of preserved mammoths.

God separated the races and attempting to mix them is like attempting to mix water with diesel fuel.- Buzsaw Message 177

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(2)
Message 165 of 226 (669855)
08-04-2012 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Portillo
08-04-2012 12:48 AM


Re: Dates, evidence, and opinions
How long do fossils take to form? They are entombed by a catastrophe very rapidly, so they dont have a chance to decay or be eaten by scavengers.

See my previous post.

Most fossils have decayed and been dismembered by scavengers.

This, for example, is Lucy:

Why do I mention her? Because this is the single most intact Australopithecus ever found. It took three weeks for the fossil hunters to find all the pieces they did. Don't they just wish she'd been buried by a single sudden event! But she wasn't. None of them were.

As WP says:

As the team analyzed the fossil further, they calculated that an amazing 40% of a hominid skeleton had been recovered, an astounding feat of anthropology. Usually, only fossil fragments are discovered; rarely are skulls or ribs found intact.

Got that? It's an astounding feat of anthropology to find as much as 40% of a skeleton. This would not be the case if fossils were always, or usually, "entombed by a catastrophe very rapidly".

If your going to explain an event in the past, you have to invoke a cause which is known to produce the effect in question. What is the effect that causes mass death and fossilization?

In every single recorded case, not a global flood.

Hello?

The mountains were underwater during the flood. How did these fossils get thousands of feet above sea level? They didnt climb up the mountain and bury themselves. They were smashed and entombed, under the ocean in mud, and pushed up after the flood. After the flood, the mountains went up and the basins went down.

Well, either that or the mountains formed without a magic flood happening first.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Portillo, posted 08-04-2012 12:48 AM Portillo has not yet responded

  
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