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Author | Topic: Evidence for Evolution: Whale evolution | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dredge Member Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
You claimed that I said that Creationism is science and that I mentioned Intelligent Design. I asked you to show where I said these things, but you can't. Is it your habit to fabricate lies about what people say, or is this an isolated aberration?
----------------------- Once creation is rejected, one has no choice but to believe in evolution.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
also pointed out other ways in which evolution is useful. Besides being the central unifying concept of biology, I mentioned predicting flu viruses and tracking human migration. That's built-in variability or "microevolution," which has nothing to do with the ToE.
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Dredge Member Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
Thank you for this information. I will study it.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
If you can show where I lied please do so.
Whether you mention Creationism or Intelligent design has nothing to do with the fact that all of the major Cristian denominations acknowledge both the fact of evolution and that the Theory of Evolution is the only explanation for the reality seen. There are NO competing theories that can explain the reality of living critters seen today or in the past. Remember, on this board we can easily sort all of our responses in a thread and so see exactly what we said in that thread. Edited by jar, : add last line as a clue to the clueless
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Hi Dredge
It's unfortunately true that some Creation ministries have accepted the concept of Speciation, based on the definition of loss of ability to reproduce with members of the former species. Technically there is such a thing as Speciation based on this definition, but of course the ToE treats it as a new Species that can go on evolving and speciating, and I've been at pains here to argue that in fact when Speciation has occurred the genetic potential for further evolution is extremely depleted or even completely at an end. This has to be the case because evolution in reality involves the loss of "information," rather tnan the gain necessary for the theory to be true. I've argued this as a loss in actual genetic material, loss of alleles for the salient traits. When a creature has evolved to the point of fixed loci or homozygosity at many gene loci, no further evolution is possible. This is the condition of the cheetah, which apparently arrived at that condition by a severe bottleneck rather than incremental evolution, but the principle is the same. Evolution, change, requires loss of information/genetic variability, and that eventually leads to a situation where no further evolution is possible. This occurs wherever evolution is actively occurring, and there may be plenty of other parts of the population that aren't evolving, or not as rapidly, so this effect won't be seen there; it's seen wherever evolution is actively occurring however. And that's where you are most likely to get the condition called "Speciation," which is just the point at which the creature has lost the ability to reproduce with different members of the same species. It's not a new species at all, it's just the loss of capacity for reproduction. Just one of the many ways evolutionists fool themselves. Evolutionists of course claim that mutations save this from happening. They can't and I've tried to show why but it's hard to get it said clearly. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Dredge Member Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined:
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jar,
I'm sorry for claiming that you fabricated a lie. It appears I've made a big dumb mistake, so I retract my accusation. I must have forgotten my medication or something.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2106 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Technically there is such a thing as Speciation based on this definition, but of course the ToE treats it as a new Species that can go on evolving and speciating... It has been pointed out to you on a number of threads that there is no "roadblock" to speciation.
...and I've been at pains here to argue that in fact when Speciation has occurred the genetic potential for further evolution is extremely depleted or even completely at an end. This has to be the case because evolution in reality involves the loss of "information," rather tnan the gain necessary for the theory to be true. I've argued this as a loss in actual genetic material, loss of alleles for the salient traits. Your "loss of information" idea stems from your belief in "the fall." In actuality, mutations occur all the time and cause change. Sometimes that change works out well, other times not so well--there have been a huge number of extinctions. In the example that RAZD has used several times (below), please show us where the loss of information set up a "roadblock" permitting no further changes:
In this diagram we see change from one species to another, with subsequent change to a new genus with two new species. Where is the "roadblock" that should have prevented this?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No the idea of a natural end to evolution does NOT come from the Fall or anything except an understanding of how evolution has to work. It's pure wishfulness that mutations contribute anything to natural processes.
Pelycodus appears tp be a series of varieties or races of the same species, which occurs all the time in natural microevolution. I don't accept that the depth of burial says anything about which variation preceded or followed which, and with fossils there's no way to tell anything about the genetic variability anyway. But with a known line of descent of living things the latest in the line should show the least genetic diversity of the variations. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : change wistfulness to wishfulness
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2106 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
No the idea of a natural end to evolution does NOT come from the Fall or anything except an understanding of how evolution has to work. It's pure wistfulness that mutations contribute anything to natural processes. This is an idea that comes from you, not from the scientists who are actually studying the subject. And you admit to putting the bible ahead of any other evidence. This renders your opinions on matters scientific worthless.
There's nothing to "block" with pelycodus, it's all nothing but varieties or races of the same species, which occurs all the time in natural microevolution. No, it is speciation, then change from one genus to the next. That's exactly what you have been saying can't occur. Again, your opinions on scientific matters are worthless. You have shown yourself to be 180 anti-science.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There's nothing in the diagram to show the changes that you claim. And I've said that technically speciation DOES occur, it's just not what you all think it is, so if this really is an example of speciation I'd say the same about it too.
I'm a creationist, I may or may not use the explanations given by conventional Science. Remember? This IS a debate you know. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2106 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
I'm a creationist, I may or may not use the explanations given by conventional Science. We understand that. The problem is that the explanations you give are almost always contradicted by "conventional science." So what is their value then, other than making you feel better about your beliefs?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
But of course conventional science IS wrong about some things. I know that comes as a terrific shock to you but alas, tis true. And an even bigger shock of course is that creationists ARE right about a lot of stuff you refuse to think about.
Conventional science is totally absolutely delusionally wrong about what mutations do for instance. It's all imaginary/conjectural too, not at all scientifically established despite the claims.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 284 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Technically there is such a thing as Speciation based on this definition, but of course the ToE treats it as a new Species that can go on evolving and speciating, and I've been at pains here to argue that in fact when Speciation has occurred the genetic potential for further evolution is extremely depleted or even completely at an end. And oh how we laughed.
Evolutionists of course claim that mutations save this from happening. They can't and I've tried to show why but it's hard to get it said clearly. And this difficulty would serve as a clue to someone so constituted as to get one.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Faith, the fact that you cannot come up with an objection that makes sense demonstrates that you have no basis for your assertion. It's just something you made up, like your weird ideas about speciation.
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Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Faith writes: That's built-in variability or "microevolution," which has nothing to do with the ToE. Some of it is inherent variation, some of it is mutation, and all of it is part of the theory of evolution. --Percy
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