Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
8 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evidence for Evolution: Whale evolution
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 316 of 443 (804365)
04-08-2017 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by jar
04-07-2017 5:54 PM


Re: Yet the fact remains that Christians oppose Creationism
You claimed that I said that Creationism is science and that I mentioned Intelligent Design. I asked you to show where I said these things, but you can't. Is it your habit to fabricate lies about what people say, or is this an isolated aberration?
-----------------------
Once creation is rejected, one has no choice but to believe in evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by jar, posted 04-07-2017 5:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by jar, posted 04-08-2017 8:22 PM Dredge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 317 of 443 (804366)
04-08-2017 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by Percy
04-08-2017 7:34 AM


also pointed out other ways in which evolution is useful. Besides being the central unifying concept of biology, I mentioned predicting flu viruses and tracking human migration.
That's built-in variability or "microevolution," which has nothing to do with the ToE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Percy, posted 04-08-2017 7:34 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Percy, posted 04-09-2017 8:23 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 332 by Dredge, posted 04-09-2017 4:18 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 318 of 443 (804367)
04-08-2017 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Coyote
04-07-2017 6:40 PM


Re: Example of speciation
Thank you for this information. I will study it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Coyote, posted 04-07-2017 6:40 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 319 of 443 (804368)
04-08-2017 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Dredge
04-08-2017 8:18 PM


Re: Yet the fact remains that Christians oppose Creationism
If you can show where I lied please do so.
Whether you mention Creationism or Intelligent design has nothing to do with the fact that all of the major Cristian denominations acknowledge both the fact of evolution and that the Theory of Evolution is the only explanation for the reality seen.
There are NO competing theories that can explain the reality of living critters seen today or in the past.
Remember, on this board we can easily sort all of our responses in a thread and so see exactly what we said in that thread.
Edited by jar, : add last line as a clue to the clueless

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Dredge, posted 04-08-2017 8:18 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by Dredge, posted 04-08-2017 8:53 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 320 of 443 (804371)
04-08-2017 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Dredge
04-08-2017 8:07 PM


Hi Dredge
It's unfortunately true that some Creation ministries have accepted the concept of Speciation, based on the definition of loss of ability to reproduce with members of the former species.
Technically there is such a thing as Speciation based on this definition, but of course the ToE treats it as a new Species that can go on evolving and speciating, and I've been at pains here to argue that in fact when Speciation has occurred the genetic potential for further evolution is extremely depleted or even completely at an end.
This has to be the case because evolution in reality involves the loss of "information," rather tnan the gain necessary for the theory to be true. I've argued this as a loss in actual genetic material, loss of alleles for the salient traits. When a creature has evolved to the point of fixed loci or homozygosity at many gene loci, no further evolution is possible. This is the condition of the cheetah, which apparently arrived at that condition by a severe bottleneck rather than incremental evolution, but the principle is the same. Evolution, change, requires loss of information/genetic variability, and that eventually leads to a situation where no further evolution is possible.
This occurs wherever evolution is actively occurring, and there may be plenty of other parts of the population that aren't evolving, or not as rapidly, so this effect won't be seen there; it's seen wherever evolution is actively occurring however. And that's where you are most likely to get the condition called "Speciation," which is just the point at which the creature has lost the ability to reproduce with different members of the same species. It's not a new species at all, it's just the loss of capacity for reproduction. Just one of the many ways evolutionists fool themselves.
Evolutionists of course claim that mutations save this from happening. They can't and I've tried to show why but it's hard to get it said clearly.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Dredge, posted 04-08-2017 8:07 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by Coyote, posted 04-08-2017 9:38 PM Faith has replied
 Message 328 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-08-2017 10:15 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 329 by PaulK, posted 04-09-2017 2:23 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 358 by Dredge, posted 04-10-2017 6:32 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


(1)
Message 321 of 443 (804372)
04-08-2017 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by jar
04-08-2017 8:22 PM


Re: Yet the fact remains that Christians oppose Creationism
jar,
I'm sorry for claiming that you fabricated a lie. It appears I've made a big dumb mistake, so I retract my accusation. I must have forgotten my medication or something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by jar, posted 04-08-2017 8:22 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 322 of 443 (804377)
04-08-2017 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by Faith
04-08-2017 8:47 PM


Technically there is such a thing as Speciation based on this definition, but of course the ToE treats it as a new Species that can go on evolving and speciating...
It has been pointed out to you on a number of threads that there is no "roadblock" to speciation.
...and I've been at pains here to argue that in fact when Speciation has occurred the genetic potential for further evolution is extremely depleted or even completely at an end. This has to be the case because evolution in reality involves the loss of "information," rather tnan the gain necessary for the theory to be true. I've argued this as a loss in actual genetic material, loss of alleles for the salient traits.
Your "loss of information" idea stems from your belief in "the fall." In actuality, mutations occur all the time and cause change. Sometimes that change works out well, other times not so well--there have been a huge number of extinctions.
In the example that RAZD has used several times (below), please show us where the loss of information set up a "roadblock" permitting no further changes:

Pelycodus was a tree-dwelling primate that looked much like a modern lemur. The skull shown is probably 7.5 centimeters long.
The numbers down the left hand side indicate the depth (in feet) at which each group of fossils was found. As is usual in geology, the diagram gives the data for the deepest (oldest) fossils at the bottom, and the upper (youngest) fossils at the top. The diagram covers about five million years.
The numbers across the bottom are a measure of body size. Each horizontal line shows the range of sizes that were found at that depth. The dark part of each line shows the average value, and the standard deviation around the average.
The dashed lines show the overall trend. The species at the bottom is Pelycodus ralstoni, but at the top we find two species, Notharctus nunienus and Notharctus venticolus. The two species later became even more distinct, and the descendants of nunienus are now labeled as genus Smilodectes instead of genus Notharctus.
As you look from bottom to top, you will see that each group has some overlap with what came before. There are no major breaks or sudden jumps. And the form of the creatures was changing steadily.
In this diagram we see change from one species to another, with subsequent change to a new genus with two new species.
Where is the "roadblock" that should have prevented this?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Faith, posted 04-08-2017 8:47 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Faith, posted 04-08-2017 9:51 PM Coyote has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 323 of 443 (804378)
04-08-2017 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by Coyote
04-08-2017 9:38 PM


No the idea of a natural end to evolution does NOT come from the Fall or anything except an understanding of how evolution has to work. It's pure wishfulness that mutations contribute anything to natural processes.
Pelycodus appears tp be a series of varieties or races of the same species, which occurs all the time in natural microevolution. I don't accept that the depth of burial says anything about which variation preceded or followed which, and with fossils there's no way to tell anything about the genetic variability anyway. But with a known line of descent of living things the latest in the line should show the least genetic diversity of the variations.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : change wistfulness to wishfulness

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Coyote, posted 04-08-2017 9:38 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Coyote, posted 04-08-2017 9:59 PM Faith has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 324 of 443 (804379)
04-08-2017 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Faith
04-08-2017 9:51 PM


No the idea of a natural end to evolution does NOT come from the Fall or anything except an understanding of how evolution has to work. It's pure wistfulness that mutations contribute anything to natural processes.
This is an idea that comes from you, not from the scientists who are actually studying the subject. And you admit to putting the bible ahead of any other evidence. This renders your opinions on matters scientific worthless.
There's nothing to "block" with pelycodus, it's all nothing but varieties or races of the same species, which occurs all the time in natural microevolution.
No, it is speciation, then change from one genus to the next. That's exactly what you have been saying can't occur.
Again, your opinions on scientific matters are worthless. You have shown yourself to be 180 anti-science.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Faith, posted 04-08-2017 9:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by Faith, posted 04-08-2017 10:02 PM Coyote has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 325 of 443 (804380)
04-08-2017 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by Coyote
04-08-2017 9:59 PM


There's nothing in the diagram to show the changes that you claim. And I've said that technically speciation DOES occur, it's just not what you all think it is, so if this really is an example of speciation I'd say the same about it too.
I'm a creationist, I may or may not use the explanations given by conventional Science. Remember? This IS a debate you know.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Coyote, posted 04-08-2017 9:59 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Coyote, posted 04-08-2017 10:08 PM Faith has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 326 of 443 (804381)
04-08-2017 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by Faith
04-08-2017 10:02 PM


I'm a creationist, I may or may not use the explanations given by conventional Science.
We understand that. The problem is that the explanations you give are almost always contradicted by "conventional science."
So what is their value then, other than making you feel better about your beliefs?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Faith, posted 04-08-2017 10:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by Faith, posted 04-08-2017 10:13 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 327 of 443 (804382)
04-08-2017 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Coyote
04-08-2017 10:08 PM


But of course conventional science IS wrong about some things. I know that comes as a terrific shock to you but alas, tis true. And an even bigger shock of course is that creationists ARE right about a lot of stuff you refuse to think about.
Conventional science is totally absolutely delusionally wrong about what mutations do for instance. It's all imaginary/conjectural too, not at all scientifically established despite the claims.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Coyote, posted 04-08-2017 10:08 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 328 of 443 (804383)
04-08-2017 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by Faith
04-08-2017 8:47 PM


Technically there is such a thing as Speciation based on this definition, but of course the ToE treats it as a new Species that can go on evolving and speciating, and I've been at pains here to argue that in fact when Speciation has occurred the genetic potential for further evolution is extremely depleted or even completely at an end.
And oh how we laughed.
Evolutionists of course claim that mutations save this from happening. They can't and I've tried to show why but it's hard to get it said clearly.
And this difficulty would serve as a clue to someone so constituted as to get one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Faith, posted 04-08-2017 8:47 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 329 of 443 (804397)
04-09-2017 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by Faith
04-08-2017 8:47 PM


quote:
Evolutionists of course claim that mutations save this from happening. They can't and I've tried to show why but it's hard to get it said clearly.
Faith, the fact that you cannot come up with an objection that makes sense demonstrates that you have no basis for your assertion.
It's just something you made up, like your weird ideas about speciation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Faith, posted 04-08-2017 8:47 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 330 of 443 (804404)
04-09-2017 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by Faith
04-08-2017 8:20 PM


Faith writes:
That's built-in variability or "microevolution," which has nothing to do with the ToE.
Some of it is inherent variation, some of it is mutation, and all of it is part of the theory of evolution.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Faith, posted 04-08-2017 8:20 PM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024