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Author Topic:   Question Evolution!
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 76 of 235 (646988)
01-07-2012 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by jar
01-07-2012 4:35 PM


Re: The tentativity of science
Mike, what we can say is that Evolution is a fact, not something subject to even debate.
Once that is acknowledged then we can go one.
My opinion is that it is viable. But even that should be questioned if there are logical reasons to do so. I think it can be shown there are.
But then, if evolution is truly a fact and I am wrong, then it is a fact. For me, staying away from hit-terms is a healthy thing, things like, "none-negotiable" or, "can't be debated" smell more of absolutes.
I'm leaving it now, I feel I have explained myself enough.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 01-07-2012 4:35 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 01-07-2012 5:01 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 77 of 235 (646989)
01-07-2012 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by mike the wiz
01-07-2012 4:33 PM


I would encourage you to step back, think about the things we are saying, and perhaps even do some of your own research.
Most of us have spent years, even decades, studying and thinking about these things. It's not reasonable to expect that you would understand them in an afternoon, particularly if it's not an area that you have a lot of experience in. There are a lot of misconceptions floating around about science and how it works, and probably the first step is to unlearn those wrong ideas.
I'm not sure you really understand the difference between a law and a theory. There's no rush here. This forum has been here for almost a decade and we're not in a hurry. The premium is placed on accurate, not fast. So take some time, this thread will always be here.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by mike the wiz, posted 01-07-2012 4:33 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by mike the wiz, posted 01-07-2012 5:04 PM subbie has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 78 of 235 (646990)
01-07-2012 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by mike the wiz
01-07-2012 4:55 PM


Re: The tentativity of science
Evolution is a fact, it really is not subject to debate.
The issue is that you must come up with a model that explains the FACT of evolution that does a better job of explaining the Fact of Evolution than the current Theory of Evolution.
Good Luck.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by mike the wiz, posted 01-07-2012 4:55 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by mike the wiz, posted 01-07-2012 5:15 PM jar has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 79 of 235 (646991)
01-07-2012 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by subbie
01-07-2012 4:56 PM


Most of us have spent years, even decades, studying and thinking about these things.
I apreciate that. It's your thing, you want it accurate.
But if you continue to bodaciously pig-squiffle my inner artichoke then I shall choke six demons out of your snozzcumber head, you babble-fed pinworm.
Now look, you've broken mike, as Dan Carroll used to say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by subbie, posted 01-07-2012 4:56 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by subbie, posted 01-07-2012 5:10 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 80 of 235 (646992)
01-07-2012 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by mike the wiz
01-07-2012 4:35 PM


Re: 6 answers
Mikey, so far as I can tell YOU don't understand what you're getting at...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by mike the wiz, posted 01-07-2012 4:35 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by mike the wiz, posted 01-07-2012 5:17 PM PaulK has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 81 of 235 (646993)
01-07-2012 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by mike the wiz
01-07-2012 5:04 PM


Now look, you've broken mike, as Dan Carroll used to say.
In the immortal words of Sheldon Cooper, "There, there."
If it makes any difference to you, it seems to me that you are being less dogmatic and more inquisitive in this thread than you have seemed in the past. And I would like you to notice that I haven't jeered a single message in this thread.
So there.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by mike the wiz, posted 01-07-2012 5:04 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by mike the wiz, posted 01-07-2012 5:18 PM subbie has replied
 Message 87 by mike the wiz, posted 01-07-2012 5:24 PM subbie has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 82 of 235 (646994)
01-07-2012 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by jar
01-07-2012 5:01 PM


Re: The tentativity of science
Jar, the science is with you on stating something simple like that, the majority is with you. The people here are with you. The explanation that would do justice to that statement, I am sure would be interesting and perhaps even would have merit with me, but to introduce this new topic at this stage, by making that simple statement, which I am sure everyone will agree with you about, without you having to stress a muscle, is not really appropriate. Do you seriously think I could now, after all of these other issues, make some clad-iron statement against such a tidal wave of disgruntled disagreable folk?
I have pretty much vowed to be quiet, so we will leave it. I think my muscle work would somehow have to be a lot stronger, I will use your own words;
The issue is that you must come up with a model that explains the FACT of evolution that does a better job of explaining the Fact of Evolution than the current Theory of Evolution.
Good Luck.
You don't think that's a little bit of a request? To come up with some argument on the spot that will do that, all on my own, without any kind of majority to perhaps add some information to my own arguments and help me?
Why does a picture of a big lazy Horace Slughorn come to mind, making casual statements, knowing that 25 skillful wizards will back him up at any one time or another?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 01-07-2012 5:01 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by jar, posted 01-07-2012 5:38 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 83 of 235 (646995)
01-07-2012 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by PaulK
01-07-2012 5:06 PM


Re: 6 answers
I do understand, Paul, in all honesty I feel that if that last explanation did not show you that, than nothing more I say will convince you. But by all means, believe me confused by my own thoughts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by PaulK, posted 01-07-2012 5:06 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by PaulK, posted 01-07-2012 5:33 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 84 of 235 (646996)
01-07-2012 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by subbie
01-07-2012 5:10 PM


Yes, I noticed you didn't jeer me, your powers of restraint are now complete, Jedi.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by subbie, posted 01-07-2012 5:10 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by subbie, posted 01-07-2012 5:22 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 85 of 235 (646998)
01-07-2012 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by mike the wiz
01-07-2012 4:42 PM


Re: The tentativity of science
I did not state that a theory becomes a law, I was only highlighting one element, one difference.
If I am wrong, then taking a leap off a building would one day break the law of gravity. With a law, you can't have a falsification evidence such as that, all know examples are consistent with gravity, in that sense.
You are looking too deeply into a simple statement I made. It was only a musing, I am not arguing with any information you provide of the differences between law and theory.
This statement:
If all of the available evidence supported evolutio, you would be making a LAW of evolution.
shows that you don't understand. All available evidence does support the theory of evolution. (I know you don't yet agree with this, so let's not get bogged down with that right now.) But the theory of evolution isn't a law. It will never be a law. It will always be a theory. The difference between a law and a theory has absolutely nothing to do with the quantum or quality of evidence supporting either one. They are completely different types of explanations of our observations of the natural world.
I don't mean to keep harping on this, but it's important that you understand this distinction. Without this understanding, it's impossible to progress in any meaningful conversation.
No hurry for you to reply, get back whenever.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by mike the wiz, posted 01-07-2012 4:42 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 86 of 235 (646999)
01-07-2012 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by mike the wiz
01-07-2012 5:18 PM


Nope, nothing to do with restraint. It's entirely a factor of your posts here not being jeerworthy, IMHO.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by mike the wiz, posted 01-07-2012 5:18 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


(1)
Message 87 of 235 (647000)
01-07-2012 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by subbie
01-07-2012 5:10 PM


If it makes any difference to you, it seems to me that you are being less dogmatic and more inquisitive in this thread than you have seemed in the past
Part of being me, I will let you in on a secret, is that although individuals do not evolve, I am an exception.
I admit that my own passion and zeal because of my Christian faith, can over-take me in the way a hard-core race-driver will burn out all his tyres in the first few laps.
I am also convinced, that no matter what I say, it is impossible to change peoples minds when they are so convinced by something.
So I am trying, and it is hard, you should try it, I am very much outnumbered and admittedly I do not have a thick skin.
I also am feeling nine years of heat, perhaps some of that heat is my own fault. Soon I will be very quiet indeed, you will be pleased to know. (as in, lurker -quiet.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by subbie, posted 01-07-2012 5:10 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by subbie, posted 01-07-2012 5:28 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(3)
Message 88 of 235 (647001)
01-07-2012 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by mike the wiz
01-07-2012 5:24 PM


I am also convinced, that no matter what I say, it is impossible to change peoples minds when they are so convinced by something.
I will let you in on a little secret. Everyone here on the science side is deeply committed to accuracy. The easiest thing to do is change our minds. All you have to do is give us evidence that we are wrong. Evidence controls ours conclusions. That's all it takes, evidence.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by mike the wiz, posted 01-07-2012 5:24 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 89 of 235 (647002)
01-07-2012 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by mike the wiz
01-07-2012 5:17 PM


Re: 6 answers
Mike, either you are making a trivial point badly (science has to go beyond the limits of deductive logic, in principle scientific conclusions could always be overturned) or you are making a bad mistake in going beyond it (e.g. not realising that we CAN have a very high degree of certainty in many scientific conclusions or thinking that we can never say that there is no longer a need to keep on actively testing a theory)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by mike the wiz, posted 01-07-2012 5:17 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by mike the wiz, posted 01-07-2012 5:56 PM PaulK has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 90 of 235 (647004)
01-07-2012 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by mike the wiz
01-07-2012 5:15 PM


Why Creationism and Intelligent Design will not be taken seriously.
Yes, it is a very big task, one that No One has been able to ever address.
Sorry but that is reality.
That is why Creationism and Intelligent Design have never been able to make any inroads outside the purely religious and are simply not and never can be science.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by mike the wiz, posted 01-07-2012 5:15 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by mike the wiz, posted 01-07-2012 5:57 PM jar has replied

  
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