Looking for dicussion on how to explain faith healing in a naturalist manner

Maybe this will help, I wrote it a while ago to try to explain miracles to someone: The Antecedent Probability Principle, the Proportional Principle & Carl SaganIf you tell me that there is a statue in a church of the Virgin Mary it is rational of me to accept your assertion because my life experience tells me that that is quite possible - statues often hang out in churches. If you have no history of lying to me randomly about everyday events and there is no other reason to suspect that you could be mistaken there is no logical reason to doubt you.This is the Antecedent Probability Principle. I accept what you tell me because it lies within what I know to be probable.If, however, you then say "and it's hovering 6 feet off the floor" I then have cause to doubt. I know from experience that statues don't hover and that there is a greater likely hood of your assertion being false - for whatever reason. If I am to behave rationally I must assume you are mistaken.In order for me to believe you I then need far more evidence than normal. What is happening here is that I proportion my belief in what you have told me in relation to the net evidence for it. The more rationally unlikely the event, the more unlikely it is to be true and the more evidence is therefore needed for it. This is the philosopher’s version of Carl Sagan’s argument that extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.If someone chooses to accept weak evidence for extraordinary events above their known experience of the physical world they are therefore thinking irrationally.However, it may be that the hovering statue is still hovering, in which case you can go and test it so that the standard of evidence matches the scale of its improbability. If after doing some simple tests yourself it would then be rational to believe that some miraculous intervention is occurring.But note, while it may well be rational to think that way, it may still be an error as it may be that your understanding of the phenomena is just incomplete.To give a daft example, a solar eclipse would seem miraculous if you hadn't lived in a culture that has the science to understand it.Also, the fact that you have done some tests that convinces YOU, it does not mean that when you tell someone else that it is rational for THEM to believe you. They may take note of what you say, take your tests into consideration but still reject it because they rightly need more objective analysis if they cannot witness the event themselves.And so on.Beware: the logical conclusion of this argument is that miracles cannot exist. This is because the more extraordinary the event, the less credible it must be, and as a miracle defies a natural law - which is impossible - they cannot exist. I'm sure this begs the question but others cleverer than me don't seem to think so.

One small nit:Carl Sagan is often credited, but Marcello Truzzi coined the phrase. He may well have been influenced by David Hume, quoted by Modulous in this thread.

Thanks for all the replies. Miracles indeed seem improbable to me(although I haven't rejected them emotionally, and I'm pretty much still stuck in the fallacy)One things that caused me to at least take those stories seriously. Such has the girl with the blind eye and the deaf ear. I've seen a video that showed a later convention with the girl present, and they showed the healing that also was filmed. In both the convention, and the video of the healing, the girl seemed to be extremely emotional. Maybe it's just me being emotional and guillible, but it seems extremely hard to fake for me. There was a lot of family present as well, and I found a quote of the mom who said she could see that the mistyness present in her eye had disappeared.I know this stuff has been faked before, but still, it's quite a feat to stage all of this. It would take a lot of training to pull this off, and of course, it would mean ill intent to deceive. I'm aware this is exactly what they want in the event it was staged, but I emotionally find it harder to accept they completely staged it, then that a miracle happened or previously unknown naturalistic healing mechanism activated(and do theories of how such a mechanism would work exist?).Anybody has got more specific information about fraud tactics used?The subject of unknown healing ability is interesting as well. In a previous thread I made on the subject, somebody already told me the story of a atheist man who has fallen on his back, was told he would never walk again, stared at the pictures of his spine all day, felt a burning sensation, and regained the ability to walk. This would hint at least some humans have additional regenerative abilities that surpass our current knowledge.

If I'm going to comment on the specifics, I'd need to see the evidence that you speak of. Otherwise I can only speculate on the techniques that might be involved. Something that seems hard to fake, might be quite easy. Or it may even be hard, but humans are pulling off difficult feats all the time. I can certainly suggest that there is a lot of motivation to deceive, and deceitful tactics can be learned and designed, just ask magicians who also do this for a living. Or the doctor was mentally preparing the man for what was the most likely outcome, even though there was a 1 in 10,000 chance he would walk again (and the doctor didn't want to give false hope), then it turned out the man was one of the lucky few whose injuries turn out to be healable by the body in a way that cannot be presently predicted ahead of time.

It's called "acting." It's so easy to fake there's actually schools where they teach you how to do it.

I was catching up on Point of Inquiry (the podcast/radio programme for Center of Inquiry. I highly recommend it) and I came upon an episode with James Randi discussing this very topic.It's definitely worth a listen.

http://www.cip.nl/nieuwsbericht_detail.asp?id=23918This internet page has one of the video's. The video is Dutch without subs, so sorry for that. It should be clear what's happening from the context/ The page also has some information on the story, maybe you can use google translate to make at least a little sense out of it. Girl in question seems to be a little hard to track, aside from the testimony that is attributed to her. A google results in almost nothing, or different persons. Also of note several orthodox Christians dislike the faith healer, also because every time somebody isn't health he basically tells them ''your faith isn't strong enough try again later''.Also this recorded failed healing is of note: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rnz9IkdJIr0
Of a 13-year old girl. Once again, Dutch, but the context is VERY clear that something is amiss. He tries to heal, fails, the girl says to her that the pain is getting worse, but she is trying to pray if she can be healed. His reply? ''People only focus on what they feel. Aim your eyes at Jesus. That's all what you need to do'' That must be painful to hear. The girl tries toe counter that she DID believe that she was going to be better. ''Then?'' asks the faith healer, trying to shove it on her. ''No, also now'' I just said it to her(her friend standing behind her). While saying this, the healer simply cuts her off by starting a hymn.Would make it awkward if the first healing is a true miracle, and that he fails here in such a manner, and then also manages to hurt her. Also, this is the second attempt. The first time she was healed.. for a short time, until her illness returned. Making it even more painful to her, and she expresses later that she ''rather had not felt how it was to be healed.'' I'm skeptical because of this. Did such a young girl with a crippling illness do anything wrong? What did she do to deserve this? Is God in support of such a cold shower of disappointment and self-doubt?So, as you can see, those stories provide quite the contrast. And rather being happy that miracles exists, I only am growing more cynical because it's all so messy and unfair.

Yeah. So first off this is not a deaf and blind girl. It's a partially deaf and blind girl. A favourite for faith healers. Fully blind and deaf people tend not to ever get healed. Suggestion can explain her perception of improvement, and the only testament we have that the apparent cataract she had cleared is that of her mother. The Derren Brown video earlier talks about the healing of the partially blind and deaf. I notice there was music playing - actually an important factor as that helps create a hypnotic or emotional situation.What would we expect if a doctor claimed a certain medication cured a person?Would a singular testimony suffice? No! Testimonials can be manufactured (either through pure invention, or through paid stooges). Snake oil salesman around the world have used the technique of having someone miraculously cured of what ails them to bolster sales, and there's no reason to suspect faith healers are any more scrupulous.We would want some kind of test that tested her hearing before and after. That tested her sight before and after. And we'd want more than a sample size of 1. We'd want to know how many people were failed to be cured. We'd want to know how many people got worse.What I see is a girl manipulated by a skilled con man, using classically known techniques (Again watch the Derren Brown video for a full exposition on the various techniques employed by faith healers) to invoke a religious experience. A powerful and real emotional experience that causes her to cry. She is convinced of an improvement, her mother inadvertently reinforces that belief and an association joining her religious faith to the healing ensures she is less likely to question its efficacy afterwards. There is tremendous psychological pressure to feel healed at the hands of these people, and the environment is tailored to reinforce that pressure as much as is possible.In short: nothing special. You can see dozens, hundreds perhaps, of these kinds of healings on the internet. From people who cannot walk being able to walk, there are blind people that can see, and deaf people that can hear. However, in almost every case that I've ever seen, where the information is known, the person starts off only partially blind, deaf or lame and we almost always get mere subjective reports of improvement.If the video showed the cataract, and showed it vanish as the faith healer cried 'In Jesus' Name!', then I'd be more impressed. I suppose that could still be faked, as we see plenty of special effects in the movies, but still - I'd be more impressed than a girl crying and saying she can hear and see better. It takes an ophthalmologist or even an optician to make that determination.I should note: I spent some time as a spiritual healer when I was a teenager. Just healing my own ailments and those of friends and family. I never performed 'miracles', because I wasn't making an effort to con, I was just deluded. But I did manage to make headaches vanish, aches melt away and I could cause warm tingly feelings throughout someone's body among other effects.The testimony of a girl and a video of her crying is really insufficient grounds to believe a miracle healing has taken place.abe: You mentioned the emotional response a couple of times. There's a reason this healer wants you to see this video (as you can tell from the fact that this video is actually a video of a video being shown by the faith healer at some later date to another audience), it's because she has a strong emotional reaction and your mirror neurons are firing off in a process commonly called 'empathy'. He's manipulating his future viewers as much as the girl. You get emotional too, perhaps even feel slightly religious or spooky or some such. I'm sorry to say that it's just another cheap trick. And again, what would be interesting is comparing a magician who uses the same kinds of techniques deliberately, to this so called faith healer and seeing if the faith healer has a significantly better track record than the magician (I suspect a faith healer would do better if we rely on subjective reports, just because of practice).What we need are objective analysis of the condition before and after the 'healing'. This is exactly the kind of thing that faith healers avoid like the plague, but we demand of doctors and drug companies. That alone should send up a red flag. Science has allowed people afflicted with polio to live. It has eradicated smallpox. It has developed anti-biotics to fight of infection. It's saved millions from death by malaria.If you are eager for miracles: Look to science with its proven track record of performing cures that for centuries nobody thought possible. Ignore the snake oil salesman and the sham (yet usually rather wealthy) faith healer conmen. More Tim Minchin, for your entertainment:

quote:

---

Thankyou God for fixing the cataracts of Sam’s mum.
I have to admit that in the past I have been skeptical,
But Sam described this miracle and I am overcome.
How fitting that the citing of a sight-based intervention,
Should open my eyes to this exciting new dimension.
It’s like someone put an eye chart on the wall in front of me,
And the top five letters said I C G O D.

​

Thank you Sam for showing how my point of view has been so flawed.
I assumed there was no God at all but now I see that’s cynical,
It’s simply that His interests aren’t particularly broad.
He’s largely undiverted by the starving masses,
Or the inequality between the classes.
He gives out strictly limited passes,
Redeemable for surgery or two-for-one glasses.

​

I feel so shocking for historically mocking.
Your interests are clearly confined to the ocular.
I bet given the chance you’d eschew the divine,
And start a little business selling contacts online.

---

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

I'm at half of miracles for sale now. It's a very interesting watch. Will see the rest later, watching it at a slow pace. It's because I'm already getting nervous about their stunt even as a viewer watching it in hindsight. About my emotional reaction, it tends to be a bit of a increased heartbeat and shaking. The several times I saw of heard anything that I thought I couldn't possible explain or refute,I well, had the HP dementor effect. The ''all happiness sucked out of you and your don't feel like you're ever going to be happy again'' sensation. It took me a long time to deconvert, and I was finally feeling like I was getting at ease again, and then this happened. My mind basically went splat. I've got autism, and I have had a long history of being somewhat gullible and suffering from religious intrusive thought. I have a post in the deconversion experiences topic made last year detailing this. I'm exactly the kind of person who tend to fall for this kind of thing.I do notice the healer creates atmosphere as well. Music on the background, and he mentally rouses the girl for a while before commencing to heal her.I've got a few questions about your comments on the video though. I'm now convinced it's indeed possible to fake something on stage(Although I would like some extra explaination about the specific ''confirmation'' methods he uses in the video). Something else has been bugging me though. Wouldn't it apparent at home, school, etc, that she HASN'T been healed? The convention which shows the faith healing footage must have been taken at the very least a few days later. How does this all still hold, if the girl is not deceiving herself?

Why would it be? Your experience of someone else's hearing or vision problems is always going to be inherently subjective, so if you want to believe that she's better, you're certainly going to be able to feel like she is.

Rest assured, their stunt is relatively kind. I think I know the sensation you describe from my own experiences. So you're exactly the kind of person that needs a robust skeptical toolkit to immunize yourself from being taken advantage of, then? I think I'm also in that category, too. My toolkit is pretty well established now, but it wasn't always the case - that's for sure.For those reading this who are now interested, you post can be found at Message 215 in Deconversion experiences. I have read a bit of it, and will get back to finish it off later. A good deal of the time, people do realize when they get home. But some people still throw away pills (with lethal outcomes) because they can feel good for some time after the experience (these experiences are quite powerful).As I mentioned earlier, in this case the girls most deep and personal faith was tied to the success of the healing. If she questions the healing, she questions her deep seated beliefs, and this might not be something this particular girl is able to do. She was told that her faith was in doubt, and that she should 'let go' and so on. So now her faith and her healing are tied together, and I think you know very well how painful it can be to have doubts about one's faith.This doesn't have to be the normal way of things, but if it happens 1 in ever 1,000 times - you can bet the healer will be keen to trumpet it.It is relatively easy to believe an improvement has occurred in a condition such as partial blindness or deafness - but the real test comes in whether she can actually see better, not whether she subjectively reports an improvement in eyesight. In fact, as opticians will tell you, subjective opinions about one's own eyesight are notoriously bad - which is why regular tests are advised.Of course, this assumes that the girl is being honest, which is an assumption we don't have to make.Again, I don't know what is going on exactly, but I certainly don't see any evidence that is sufficient to suggest that the actions of the faith healer actually cured something.

Yeah, I always need to pay attention to keep myself in check. I noticed, when in doubt about my various questions about the unseen, I tend to go with what I currently define as the ''worst possibility'' , whatever that may be atm. I have caused myself a lot of trouble with this habit. Only way I get around it is when the odds get really low, or that I just find something that explains it altogether. If I may ask, are there stories on the web that have cases of bone-healing in unusual conditions, but turned out to have rational explanation?And to get a bit off topic, I need to reread that huge post again sometime. It might be interesting, and some stuff might be forgotten. (I was really tired towards the end of the 2-hour typing session or so). Would like to talk about it a bit with people who are interested. I could use the coffee house, but that forum does.... not quite live up to the ''take a break from debate'' description, to say to the least.

Faith healers absorb the sickness into their bodies an channel it away which is a difficult thing to do. then some people don't really want to be healed but say they do. your right win some , lose some. then it is possible to get a half healing or less. I know because I have.

Yes there are fake healings an you can spot them sometimes an you can't sometimes, an lots of people will go along with a fake healing an even more so if television is involved,it is just to get attention an have something to talk about

Do you have any real evidence to support this? Your posts have been remarkably free of evidence so far, so here's your big chance!(And no, anything concerning Peter Popoff does not count as evidence!)