Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9161 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,581 Year: 2,838/9,624 Month: 683/1,588 Week: 89/229 Day: 61/28 Hour: 0/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Executive Pay - Good Capitalism Bad Capitalism?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 135 (824588)
11-30-2017 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Minnemooseus
11-29-2017 9:01 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
But anyone who takes in more than a million dollars per year did not earn that, they stole it.
I think I understand the sentiment, but perhaps this sentence is a bit over the top. Last year, Cristiano Ronaldo earned 59 million dollars playing soccer. In what sense did he steal that money?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Minnemooseus, posted 11-29-2017 9:01 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by RAZD, posted 12-01-2017 12:06 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 135 (824591)
12-01-2017 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by RAZD
12-01-2017 12:06 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
Is he really worth that?
I am not challenging that part. But to call a man a thief? I cannot call a man that unless he did something he should not have done.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by RAZD, posted 12-01-2017 12:06 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by RAZD, posted 12-01-2017 12:50 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 135 (824594)
12-01-2017 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by RAZD
12-01-2017 12:50 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
So the question is whether an exploiter is a thief or not?
Well, if you are going to ask the question that way, I am going to ask you who a soccer player is exploiting.
Again, I don't find the evil in negotiating for and taking any sum for playing soccer (or acting in a movie, or writing a book). I don't care whether he deserved the money or not. Why are we applying words like exploiter and thief to folks without identifying the wrong they have done?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by RAZD, posted 12-01-2017 12:50 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-01-2017 2:28 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 135 (824605)
12-01-2017 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Minnemooseus
12-01-2017 2:28 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
Getting more than you deserve to get is getting more than you earned. Getting less than you deserve is getting less than you earned.
Fair enough. That still does not explain how we can call someone a thief or an exploiter if he is paid what someone considers to be too much for is his labor. I picked the example of laborers who have no employees to exploit, but who managed to make more than a million dollars a year. RAZD thinks such people are exploiters or thieves. I don't see it.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-01-2017 2:28 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 12-01-2017 11:05 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 135 (824636)
12-01-2017 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ringo
12-01-2017 11:05 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
What people "deserve" is what they need, not what they can grab.
I understand that some people feel that way. But I don't agree with that method of evaluating my labor. Using your definition, no matter how many hours I work, I "deserve" only that which I need.
In reality, some labor (such as surgery, solving a partial differential equation) is rarer and thus valued more highly by those folks who want that labor and some skills (like consistently hitting a baseball fairly, in 3 out of 10 at-bats) take more effort to learn. Folks who have those skills are not slaves such that they have to give them to you at a pittance.
The idea that you don't even own, let alone value your own or labor, which is inherent in the position you are pushing, is an idea I completely reject.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 12-01-2017 11:05 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 12-02-2017 10:43 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 135 (824639)
12-01-2017 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by RAZD
12-01-2017 1:36 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
What anyone needs at a minimum is a wage that pays for your essential living expenses for working 40 hrs/week.
Under this definition, are you an exploiting, thief, RAZD?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by RAZD, posted 12-01-2017 1:36 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by RAZD, posted 12-01-2017 4:11 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 135 (824666)
12-01-2017 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by RAZD
12-01-2017 4:11 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
What a person needs and what a person deserves as fair compensation for work are two different things.
Sure. That would seem to be my point.
But you also seem to be saying that need is the basis for pay. And you also seem to be capping what a person can "deserve" based on things that don't seem to make any sense to me, and then attaching opprobrium ("thief", "exploiter") to folks you deem undeserving. According to you, people should be paid a "need rate" and then have to work extra hours to get more.
Walmart exploits their workers and steals money from them
I have deliberately not been using corporations or employers as examples. I have been strictly using examples of employees who can demand and get large compensation without exploiting other workers. Yet I am drawing "but Walmart" response.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by RAZD, posted 12-01-2017 4:11 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by RAZD, posted 12-02-2017 9:11 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 135 (824694)
12-02-2017 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
12-02-2017 10:43 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
I don't think I said you should be limited to what you need. That's the minimum that you "deserve".
Fair enough ringo. I did misread you.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 12-02-2017 10:43 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 135 (824696)
12-02-2017 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Tangle
12-01-2017 6:44 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
Profit is what is made AFTER payments to employees. Profit is shared with the owners of the company, not the employees of the company.
Profit is what is left after all payments are made. But isn't this really just leaning on definitions rather than policy? If the employees are paid a percentage of revenue minus non-employee costs, and profit is what is left over, how would that scheme be different from profit-sharing as far as the shareholders are concerned?
Shareholders invest when the return is sufficient. If employees are also getting a cut, the shareholders might still invest as long as the shareholder's portion is high enough.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Tangle, posted 12-01-2017 6:44 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2017 6:03 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 113 of 135 (824865)
12-04-2017 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by New Cat's Eye
12-04-2017 11:51 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
I believe in having fairness in opportunity but I don't expect fairness in outcome. And I'm against a state trying to force fairness in outcome by restricting opportunity.
I think everybody is onboard with this, and that the difference in where people stand lies in what they define as opportunity vs outcome? Is getting a great education and opportunity or an outcome? Is not having lead in your water an opportunity or an outcome? Is not getting "shot while black" an opportunity or an outcome?
I am not pegging you on either end of the spectrum. What I am challenging you on is the idea that people who come out differently than you are morally inferior or restrictors of opportunity. It is a matter of fact that opportunities are not infinite and that providing one person opportunities often deprives another of the same opportunity. Any leveling of the playing field, fair or not, will have that effect.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 11:51 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 12:49 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 135 (824888)
12-04-2017 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by New Cat's Eye
12-04-2017 12:49 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
NoNukes writes:
What I am challenging you on is the idea that people who come out differently than you are morally inferior or restrictors of opportunity.
NCI writes:
I don't think either of those things.
You are the one who brought the idea up.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 12:49 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 5:58 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 135 (824903)
12-04-2017 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by New Cat's Eye
12-04-2017 5:58 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
NCE writes:
You must've misread me.
That is certainly possible. You did say this.
NCE writes:
And I'm against a state trying to force fairness in outcome by restricting opportunity.
I'm going to assume that you don't believe anybody is for such a thing given your comments. So why'd you bring that up?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 5:58 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 10:13 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 135 (824905)
12-05-2017 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by New Cat's Eye
12-04-2017 10:13 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
[qs]And I'm against a state trying to force fairness in outcome by restricting opportunity[qs]
Because I do believe that some people are for such a thing, as I've said:
Yes, you do believe that. That's why I said this:
I am not pegging you on either end of the spectrum. What I am challenging you on is the idea that people who come out differently than you are morally inferior or restrictors of opportunity.
To which you responded:
I don't think either of those things.
Not sure why you bothered to deny thinking that way, only to come back and acknowledge it now.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 10:13 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-05-2017 9:26 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 130 of 135 (825061)
12-07-2017 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by New Cat's Eye
12-06-2017 8:49 PM


Re: Opportunity vs Privilege
NCE writes:
Are you saying that both opportunity to education and opportunity for work are being lumbered by both institutionalized racism/biases...
If so, then okay: what is your solution?
If so, then there is no acceptable solution. By and large, nobody will accept the least bit of inconvenience to right such a wrong, regardless of how egregious. It is perfectly okay, for example, to let people into Harvard in part because somebody's dad and/or grandaddy is an alumnus, or maybe even a donor. But it is not okay to let someone into Harvard, in part because nobody in their family ever went there. Hundreds of years of your family getting the short end because of their race? Too bad. No system of compensation or getting ahead will ever be acceptable. In fact, let's just pile more shit on.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-06-2017 8:49 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024