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Author Topic:   Executive Pay - Good Capitalism Bad Capitalism?
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10116
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 46 of 132 (824594)
12-01-2017 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by RAZD
12-01-2017 12:50 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
So the question is whether an exploiter is a thief or not?

Well, if you are going to ask the question that way, I am going to ask you who a soccer player is exploiting.

Again, I don't find the evil in negotiating for and taking any sum for playing soccer (or acting in a movie, or writing a book). I don't care whether he deserved the money or not. Why are we applying words like exploiter and thief to folks without identifying the wrong they have done?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by RAZD, posted 12-01-2017 12:50 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-01-2017 2:28 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3580
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 47 of 132 (824595)
12-01-2017 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by NoNukes
12-01-2017 1:24 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
I don't care whether he deserved the money or not.

In at least the context of the present subtitle, getting what you earn is getting what you deserve to get. Getting more than you deserve to get is getting more than you earned. Getting less than you deserve is getting less than you earned.

In this context "earn" and "deserve" are synonyms.

Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by NoNukes, posted 12-01-2017 1:24 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by NoNukes, posted 12-01-2017 7:23 AM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5234
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 48 of 132 (824597)
12-01-2017 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Minnemooseus
11-29-2017 9:01 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
Minn writes:

There is nobody smart enough, hardworking enough, trained enough and dedicated enough to earn a billion dollars without leveraging corrupt systems and exploiting people.

There's a confusion of terms here. 'Earn' is the problem.

It implies that the billionaire was paid for his efforts in the same way that a nurse is paid for hers. That is obviously impossible. The billionaire, unlike the nurse, had access to a different mechanism of wealth building over and above the selling of his time and labour - an appreciating asset base.

He is able to build a business or businesses that create wealth and push that wealth back to him in dividends and physical assets. He's using a very large lever to do the work for him. The nurse can't access that lever.

CEO pay is a better equivalence as he is selling his labour in the same way as the nurse (and the footballer). The question is why society values one higher than the other.

In Sweden, the pay gap between the highest paid worker and the lowest is far narrower that in the UK and US. It's simply not true that CEOs need to be paid the amount they are to do the job they do - they don't. What they are paid is a culture-based decision that reflects the values of the society they operate in.

I'd say the US culture is one of free markets and free enterprise closely mirroring survival of the fittest - the American dream requires it. People grab what they can and are admired for it. Trump's defense of paying no tax makes him smart is the epitome of it. Sweden's culture is the opposite, it has a history of understatement, social equity and labour rights. It makes them a happy people. I guess you don't necessarily get what you pay for.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Minnemooseus, posted 11-29-2017 9:01 PM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10116
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 49 of 132 (824605)
12-01-2017 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Minnemooseus
12-01-2017 2:28 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
Getting more than you deserve to get is getting more than you earned. Getting less than you deserve is getting less than you earned.

Fair enough. That still does not explain how we can call someone a thief or an exploiter if he is paid what someone considers to be too much for is his labor. I picked the example of laborers who have no employees to exploit, but who managed to make more than a million dollars a year. RAZD thinks such people are exploiters or thieves. I don't see it.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-01-2017 2:28 AM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 12-01-2017 11:05 AM NoNukes has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 50 of 132 (824625)
12-01-2017 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by NoNukes
12-01-2017 7:23 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
NoNukes writes:

That still does not explain how we can call someone a thief or an exploiter if he is paid what someone considers to be too much for is his labor.


It all comes down to ownership, which in itself is a feudal term. The individual "owns" what he can grab. What the little guy grabs is grabbed away from him by the big guy. The big guy "owns" it because he had the power to grab it.

What people "deserve" is what they need, not what they can grab.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by NoNukes, posted 12-01-2017 7:23 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 12-01-2017 12:18 PM ringo has responded
 Message 55 by NoNukes, posted 12-01-2017 1:49 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 51 of 132 (824627)
12-01-2017 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ringo
12-01-2017 11:05 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
But who determines what you need? I might determine that you need less or more than you actually do.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 12-01-2017 11:05 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 12-01-2017 12:26 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 54 by RAZD, posted 12-01-2017 1:36 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 52 of 132 (824628)
12-01-2017 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
12-01-2017 12:18 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
Phat writes:

But who determines what you need?


In Canada we get a "basic exemption" on our income tax. That's an attempt to determine what we need. We also have a "poverty line". That's another attempt to determine what we need.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 12-01-2017 12:18 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11840
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 53 of 132 (824629)
12-01-2017 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by RAZD
12-01-2017 12:49 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
So you like being a serf. Fascinating.

I like having a job slightly more than I like being homeless


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by RAZD, posted 12-01-2017 12:49 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 54 of 132 (824631)
12-01-2017 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
12-01-2017 12:18 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
But who determines what you need? I might determine that you need less or more than you actually do.

What anyone needs at a minimum is a wage that pays for your essential living expenses for working 40 hrs/week.

This can be derived from the costs of necessary goods (food, clothes, etc) and housing and comfort (heated/AC apartments) and would vary from area to area.

If a person needs more than that for personal reasons, they can work extra hours.

If the company needs more from the workers, then they should pay extra for the overtime and loss of family time.

Now, if we were to consider a minimum weekly/monthly/dividend (your reward for participating in the economy) that could be set to the minimum essential living expenses for the respective areas.

Now if a person wants more than the bare necessities, they can work for the extra funds.

If a company wants workers, they have to pay enough to attract the workers.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 12-01-2017 12:18 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by NoNukes, posted 12-01-2017 2:03 PM RAZD has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10116
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 55 of 132 (824636)
12-01-2017 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ringo
12-01-2017 11:05 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
What people "deserve" is what they need, not what they can grab.

I understand that some people feel that way. But I don't agree with that method of evaluating my labor. Using your definition, no matter how many hours I work, I "deserve" only that which I need.

In reality, some labor (such as surgery, solving a partial differential equation) is rarer and thus valued more highly by those folks who want that labor and some skills (like consistently hitting a baseball fairly, in 3 out of 10 at-bats) take more effort to learn. Folks who have those skills are not slaves such that they have to give them to you at a pittance.

The idea that you don't even own, let alone value your own or labor, which is inherent in the position you are pushing, is an idea I completely reject.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 12-01-2017 11:05 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 12-02-2017 10:43 AM NoNukes has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10116
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 56 of 132 (824639)
12-01-2017 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by RAZD
12-01-2017 1:36 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
What anyone needs at a minimum is a wage that pays for your essential living expenses for working 40 hrs/week.

Under this definition, are you an exploiting, thief, RAZD?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by RAZD, posted 12-01-2017 1:36 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by RAZD, posted 12-01-2017 4:11 PM NoNukes has responded

    
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1825
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 57 of 132 (824644)
12-01-2017 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by New Cat's Eye
01-10-2015 12:46 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
New Cat's Eye wrote almost 3 years ago in Message 34:

You can't make a profit off the workers that way.

and

No, you just want the company to make a profit off any additional workers. That's why the company is in business; to make a profit.

This rubs me the wrong way - you shouldn't be making the profit OFF of your workers, you should be making the profit off of your customers.

The attitude should be more like making the profit WITH your workers.

An unconscious attitude change can make subtle differences in how the company is run.


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-10-2015 12:46 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11840
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 58 of 132 (824647)
12-01-2017 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by xongsmith
12-01-2017 2:57 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
This rubs me the wrong way - you shouldn't be making the profit OFF of your workers, you should be making the profit off of your customers.

Then don't work for a company like that. I don't have a problem with it.

I know that the company I work for now is making money off of me - my bill rate is way higher than my pay rate - but that gives me leverage. I'm providing value to my employer and they know it. I could go provide that value to a different company if they don't play nice, and then they'll lose money - and they know that too.

The attitude should be more like making the profit WITH your workers.

You can run your company however you want.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by xongsmith, posted 12-01-2017 2:57 PM xongsmith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by RAZD, posted 12-01-2017 3:53 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 59 of 132 (824650)
12-01-2017 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by New Cat's Eye
12-01-2017 3:26 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
I know that the company I work for now is making money off of me - my bill rate is way higher than my pay rate - but that gives me leverage. I'm providing value to my employer and they know it. I could go provide that value to a different company if they don't play nice, and then they'll lose money - and they know that too.

Do you think you are getting a fair share of the profit the company makes?

The bill rate also covers overhead that allows the company to function -- that goes to utilities, accounting, property costs, etc. -- it would be abnormal for your pay rate to be the same as your bill rate. But that is costs of business before profit.

The attitude should be more like making the profit WITH your workers.

You can run your company however you want.

If you think you are getting a fair share of the profit the company makes then the company is making the profit WITH the workers.

If you don't think you are getting a fair share of the profit the company makes then the company is exploiting you (with your willing participation in being exploited).

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-01-2017 3:26 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Tangle, posted 12-01-2017 6:44 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 95 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-03-2017 6:38 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 60 of 132 (824652)
12-01-2017 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by NoNukes
12-01-2017 2:03 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
What anyone needs at a minimum is a wage that pays for your essential living expenses for working 40 hrs/week.

Under this definition, are you an exploiting, thief, RAZD?

What a person needs and what a person deserves as fair compensation for work are two different things.

What a person needs would be the same for everyone in each specific area. What a person deserves depends on their contribution to the company profits. In a cooperative the different pay grades are established democratically, while a feudal style company will decree from the top down.

You can compare similar companies that operate each way to see the difference: Costco and Walmart. Nobody working for Costco has to register for medicare, medicaid, housing assistance, food stamps, etc. while most workers at Walmart do (they even get coached in how to do it).

Walmart exploits their workers and steals money from them (and from taxpayers via the social assistance programs) -- you and I subsidize Walmart profits, which is siphoned to upper management rather than shared with the workers.

Costco doesn't.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by NoNukes, posted 12-01-2017 2:03 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by NoNukes, posted 12-01-2017 11:03 PM RAZD has responded

  
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