Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 107 (8805 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-13-2017 12:26 AM
336 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Post Volume:
Total: 824,060 Year: 28,666/21,208 Month: 732/1,847 Week: 107/475 Day: 0/17 Hour: 0/0

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1234
5
6789Next
Author Topic:   Executive Pay - Good Capitalism Bad Capitalism?
Taq
Member
Posts: 7272
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 61 of 132 (824655)
12-01-2017 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by RAZD
12-01-2017 12:06 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
RAZD writes:

Looks like he found a vulnerable system to exploit, like all professional athletes, and was happy to do so.

Athletes are different than CEO's. Athletes actually have to bargain with their bosses for their salaries. In the case of CEO's, there is often collusion between executives and the people holding the purse strings to raise their salaries as high as possible. At least with professional sports there is some level of antagonism between parties.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by RAZD, posted 12-01-2017 12:06 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by RAZD, posted 12-02-2017 9:07 AM Taq has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5234
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 62 of 132 (824661)
12-01-2017 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by RAZD
12-01-2017 3:53 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
RAZD writes:

Do you think you are getting a fair share of the profit the company makes?

Profit is what is made AFTER payments to employees. Profit is shared with the owners of the company, not the employees of the company. So the question doesn't make finacial sense.

It might make social sense, but not, I fear, inside a capitalist structure as it is currently organised.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by RAZD, posted 12-01-2017 3:53 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Rrhain, posted 12-01-2017 9:53 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 66 by RAZD, posted 12-02-2017 8:54 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 73 by NoNukes, posted 12-02-2017 2:06 PM Tangle has responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6210
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 63 of 132 (824664)
12-01-2017 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Tangle
12-01-2017 6:44 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
Tangle writes:

quote:
Profit is shared with the owners of the company

Profile is shared with those people the bylaws of the company say it should be shared with.

Surely you aren't saying that an employee profit-sharing structure isn't "capitalist," are you?

After all, we used to have regulations on companies that incentivized using those profits to increase employee salaries, provide better benefits, etc. But then the Reagan revolution came along and the regulations instead incentivized using those profits to pay dividends to shareholders. That, in turn, led to companies paying their board members and CEOs not through salaries but through stock...which then incentivized the board and CEO to make business decisions that are primarily geared toward improving the stock price rather than improving the company.

Exactly how would adjusting our fiscal policy to redirect the use of those profits to be back into the company rather than the shareholders be against "capitalism"?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Tangle, posted 12-01-2017 6:44 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2017 3:10 AM Rrhain has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10116
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 64 of 132 (824666)
12-01-2017 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by RAZD
12-01-2017 4:11 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
What a person needs and what a person deserves as fair compensation for work are two different things.

Sure. That would seem to be my point.

But you also seem to be saying that need is the basis for pay. And you also seem to be capping what a person can "deserve" based on things that don't seem to make any sense to me, and then attaching opprobrium ("thief", "exploiter") to folks you deem undeserving. According to you, people should be paid a "need rate" and then have to work extra hours to get more.

Walmart exploits their workers and steals money from them

I have deliberately not been using corporations or employers as examples. I have been strictly using examples of employees who can demand and get large compensation without exploiting other workers. Yet I am drawing "but Walmart" response.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by RAZD, posted 12-01-2017 4:11 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by RAZD, posted 12-02-2017 9:11 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5234
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 65 of 132 (824670)
12-02-2017 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Rrhain
12-01-2017 9:53 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
Rrhain writes:

Exactly how would adjusting our fiscal policy to redirect the use of those profits to be back into the company rather than the shareholders be against "capitalism"?

Because if you don't allow profits to be given back to owners, they won't make the investments necessary to create and grow companies.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Rrhain, posted 12-01-2017 9:53 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by RAZD, posted 12-02-2017 9:01 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 70 by RAZD, posted 12-02-2017 9:36 AM Tangle has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 66 of 132 (824677)
12-02-2017 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Tangle
12-01-2017 6:44 PM


Corporate Feudalism vs Democracy
To add to what Rrhain said

RAZD writes:

Do you think you are getting a fair share of the profit the company makes?

It might make social sense, but not, I fear, inside a capitalist structure as it is currently organised.

How companies decide to share profits is built into the management structure used.

Capitalism comes in many forms, and what we in the US have is a mixture of feudal (CEO run) companies and democratic (cooperative) companies, and we have for-profit companies and non-profit companies.

Getting a fair share from a corporation is similar to getting a fair shake from a government. If the structure is shared democratic and the people have a say, then they are much more likely to get a fair share.

I find it exceedingly curious that people are happy and proud to have thrown off the yoke of feudal style (king run) government for a democratic style government, but are happy to embrace being serfs in a feudal style corporation.

Whenever we talk about different countries and their governments it seems that the degree of democracy and voice that the people have is equated to relative freedom and liberty and good things they have. Yet whenever we talk about companies, the degree of democracy and voice that the workers have is not considered important.

This is a huge disconnect.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Tangle, posted 12-01-2017 6:44 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2017 2:16 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 67 of 132 (824679)
12-02-2017 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Tangle
12-02-2017 3:10 AM


What is the basis for fair share allocation to investors?
Because if you don't allow profits to be given back to owners, they won't make the investments necessary to create and grow companies.

And why does this not hold true for the sweat-equity investors in the company? Are there two kinds of people, elites and peons?

Can the company succeed and grow without the workers? No.

Can the company succeed and grow without the investors? Yes.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2017 3:10 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2017 2:23 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 68 of 132 (824680)
12-02-2017 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Taq
12-01-2017 4:55 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
Athletes are different than CEO's. Athletes actually have to bargain with their bosses for their salaries. In the case of CEO's, there is often collusion between executives and the people holding the purse strings to raise their salaries as high as possible. At least with professional sports there is some level of antagonism between parties.

So you agree that having a powerful voice in negotiating compensation with "the people holding the purse strings" is more likely to lead to a fair(er) share of the profits of the corporation (and sports are corporations), and that the players unions means that it is more equitably shared with all the players?

But then we come to the star players. Are they exploiting the system to get more than other players? What's a fair share?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Taq, posted 12-01-2017 4:55 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Taq, posted 12-04-2017 5:03 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 69 of 132 (824682)
12-02-2017 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by NoNukes
12-01-2017 11:03 PM


special case to general case extrapolations
I have deliberately not been using corporations or employers as examples. I have been strictly using examples of employees who can demand and get large compensation without exploiting other workers. Yet I am drawing "but Walmart" response.

Possibly because a special case is not representative of the whole situation.

Would you agree that the special case of workers at Walmart would be better off if they could "demand and get large compensation without exploiting other workers" ... like those at Costco do?

Can we extrapolate from this that the more a democratic system is used to determine who shares how much of the profits, the less likely any of the people involved will be exploited becomes?

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : ..


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by NoNukes, posted 12-01-2017 11:03 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 70 of 132 (824684)
12-02-2017 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Tangle
12-02-2017 3:10 AM


What if the owners or shareholders are the workers?
Rrhain writes:

Exactly how would adjusting our fiscal policy to redirect the use of those profits to be back into the company rather than the shareholders be against "capitalism"?

Because if you don't allow profits to be given back to owners, they won't make the investments necessary to create and grow companies.

What if the owners are the workers?

What if the shareholders are the workers?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2017 3:10 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2017 2:32 PM RAZD has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 71 of 132 (824685)
12-02-2017 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by NoNukes
12-01-2017 1:49 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
NoNukes writes:

Using your definition, no matter how many hours I work, I "deserve" only that which I need.


I don't think I said you should be limited to what you need. That's the minimum that you "deserve".

NoNukes writes:

The idea that you don't even own, let alone value your own or labor, which is inherent in the position you are pushing....


You couldn't have got farther from my position if you worked at it 25 hours a day.

Of course you own your labour. What you don't own is an infinite amount of resources in exchange for your labour. Even if people are willing to pay, you don't "deserve" more. There ought to be a better way than hoarding to recognize exceptional contributions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by NoNukes, posted 12-01-2017 1:49 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by NoNukes, posted 12-02-2017 2:03 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10116
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 72 of 132 (824694)
12-02-2017 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
12-02-2017 10:43 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
I don't think I said you should be limited to what you need. That's the minimum that you "deserve".

Fair enough ringo. I did misread you.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 12-02-2017 10:43 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10116
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 73 of 132 (824696)
12-02-2017 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Tangle
12-01-2017 6:44 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
Profit is what is made AFTER payments to employees. Profit is shared with the owners of the company, not the employees of the company.

Profit is what is left after all payments are made. But isn't this really just leaning on definitions rather than policy? If the employees are paid a percentage of revenue minus non-employee costs, and profit is what is left over, how would that scheme be different from profit-sharing as far as the shareholders are concerned?

Shareholders invest when the return is sufficient. If employees are also getting a cut, the shareholders might still invest as long as the shareholder's portion is high enough.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Tangle, posted 12-01-2017 6:44 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2017 6:03 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5234
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 74 of 132 (824698)
12-02-2017 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by RAZD
12-02-2017 8:54 AM


Re: Corporate Feudalism vs Democracy
RAZD writes:

I find it exceedingly curious that people are happy and proud to have thrown off the yoke of feudal style (king run) government for a democratic style government, but are happy to embrace being serfs in a feudal style corporation.

Like the use of the word 'theft' earlier I don't think there's much mileage to be had trying to compare salaried employees to serfs wearing yokes etc, it's a cartoon view.

Whenever we talk about different countries and their governments it seems that the degree of democracy and voice that the people have is equated to relative freedom and liberty and good things they have. Yet whenever we talk about companies, the degree of democracy and voice that the workers have is not considered important.

I guess that's because a we can all cast a vote but we can't all design an iPhone.

But also companies are a function of the societies they operate in - give a company an unregulated free reign and you get inequality; regulate pay, conditions and trade and you get fairer societies. Don't blame companies blame the societies the operate in.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by RAZD, posted 12-02-2017 8:54 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by RAZD, posted 12-02-2017 3:55 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5234
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 75 of 132 (824703)
12-02-2017 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by RAZD
12-02-2017 9:01 AM


Re: What is the basis for fair share allocation to investors?
RAZD writes:

And why does this not hold true for the sweat-equity investors in the company?

Because economics don't work that way. Sweat is cheap and easy to buy.

Are there two kinds of people, elites and peons?

You're resorting to emotive caricatures again. Thers are many kinds of people with varying wealth

Can the company succeed and grow without the workers? No.Can the company succeed and grow without the investors? Yes.

Self-evidently wrong.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by RAZD, posted 12-02-2017 9:01 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by RAZD, posted 12-02-2017 4:11 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Prev1234
5
6789Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017