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Author Topic:   Executive Pay - Good Capitalism Bad Capitalism?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 76 of 132 (824704)
12-02-2017 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by RAZD
12-02-2017 9:36 AM


Re: What if the owners or shareholders are the workers?
RAZD writes:

What if the owners are the workers?

What if the shareholders are the workers?

Then you have a cooperative.

Cooperatives have been around for a long time, they work for some forms of business, notably trading organisations. They're a minor part of our economies partly because they are necessarily under capitalised. You can't create a biochemical industry on a co-op model, you can't get the capital.

There's nothing stopping anyone creating co-ops, so why don't they?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by RAZD, posted 12-02-2017 9:36 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 12-02-2017 2:36 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 78 by RAZD, posted 12-02-2017 3:37 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 77 of 132 (824705)
12-02-2017 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Tangle
12-02-2017 2:32 PM


Re: What if the owners or shareholders are the workers?
There's nothing stopping anyone creating co-ops, so why don't they?
Because the wealthy hold most of the investment money. They are not going to enter into a business deal where they have to provide startup costs and then get a shared return that is less than what they initially spent.

Unless they were just being nice.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2017 2:32 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2017 6:05 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 96 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-03-2017 6:43 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 78 of 132 (824709)
12-02-2017 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Tangle
12-02-2017 2:32 PM


Re: What if the owners or shareholders are the workers?
... They're a minor part of our economies partly because they are necessarily under capitalised. ...

There's nothing stopping anyone creating co-ops, so why don't they?

Your biases are showing.

quote:
Cooperative

Research published by the Worldwatch Institute found that in 2012 approximately one billion people in 96 countries had become members of at least one cooperative.[2] The turnover of the largest three hundred cooperatives in the world reached $2.2 trillion – which, if they were to be a country, it would make them the seventh largest.[3]

... Cooperative businesses are typically more economically resilient than many other forms of enterprise, with twice the number of co-operatives (80%) surviving their first five years compared with other business ownership models (41%).[5] ...

In the United States of America

In a 2007 study by the World Council of Credit Unions, the 5 year survival rate of cooperatives in the United States was found to be 90% in comparison to 3-5% for traditional businesses.[35]

New generation cooperatives (NGCs) are an adaptation of traditional cooperative structures to modern, capital intensive industries. They are sometimes described as a hybrid between traditional co-ops and limited liability companies or public benefit corporations. They were first developed in California and spread and flourished in the US Mid-West in the 1990s.[37] They are now common in Canada where they operate primarily in agriculture and food services, where their primary purpose is to add value to primary products. For example, producing ethanol from corn, pasta from durum wheat, or gourmet cheese from goat’s milk. A representative example of an operating NGC is the Fourth Estate (association), a multi-stakeholder NGC journalism association.


Now that could be due to all the workers being committed to the success of the company instead of just the owner ... or it could be due to consumers supporting their community organizations instead of remote corporations ...

Or it could be due to the co-op being a better model to realize the goal of the entity.

Or it could be that workers are tired of oligarchic corporations. Several co-ops have risen from the ashes of a failed company.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2017 2:32 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2017 6:30 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 79 of 132 (824710)
12-02-2017 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Tangle
12-02-2017 2:16 PM


Re: Corporate Feudalism vs Democracy
Like the use of the word 'theft' earlier I don't think there's much mileage to be had trying to compare salaried employees to serfs wearing yokes etc, it's a cartoon view.

And yet people are starving and living in poverty due to capitalism run amok.

It's properly called hyperbole, where the argument is purposefully overstated to get people out of the shallow box they are in.

But also companies are a function of the societies they operate in - give a company an unregulated free reign and you get inequality; regulate pay, conditions and trade and you get fairer societies. Don't blame companies blame the societies the operate in.

No, it's a function of how they operate within the social structure. Your "regulation" elements are historically temporary at best. As long as oligarchic sociopathic corporations exist they will keep trying to chip away at them.

Glass Steagall for example.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2017 2:16 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 80 of 132 (824713)
12-02-2017 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Tangle
12-02-2017 2:23 PM


Re: What is the basis for fair share allocation to investors?
Because economics don't work that way. Sweat is cheap and easy to buy.

Again with the elitist attitude to workers. They don't deserve anything because they are cheap?

Doesn't apply to co-ops ... so not a truism. You're resorting to emotive caricatures here.

You're resorting to emotive caricatures again. ...

Sometimes you need to get out of your shallow box thinking.

... Thers are many kinds of people with varying wealth

And the wealth gap just keeps growing ...

Self-evidently wrong.

Curiously, there are existing example of businesses operating and growing without investors, and I know of no company that operates with no workers.

Again your thinking is biased.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2017 2:23 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 81 of 132 (824725)
12-02-2017 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by NoNukes
12-02-2017 2:06 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
NoNukes writes:

Profit is what is left after all payments are made. But isn't this really just leaning on definitions rather than policy? If the employees are paid a percentage of revenue minus non-employee costs, and profit is what is left over, how would that scheme be different from profit-sharing as far as the shareholders are concerned?

It doesn't really matter how you play around with the numbers (ignoring taxation differences), you have to create a regime of out payments that result in a profitable company able to compete with other companies in the same market. If you pay your employees more than your competitor you either have to employ fewer people or raise your prices.

Of course regulation can force an even playing field but this can make your country internationally uncompetitve and is not normally an act associated with a country like the USA.

Shareholders invest when the return is sufficient. If employees are also getting a cut, the shareholders might still invest as long as the shareholder's portion is high enough.

Sure but shareholders can choose where to invest, a rational investor wouldn't invest in a company that paid its employees far more that the going rate and was therefore less profitable - all other things being equal.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by NoNukes, posted 12-02-2017 2:06 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by xongsmith, posted 12-02-2017 6:49 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 86 by RAZD, posted 12-03-2017 9:19 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 82 of 132 (824726)
12-02-2017 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
12-02-2017 2:36 PM


Re: What if the owners or shareholders are the workers?
Phat writes:

Because the wealthy hold most of the investment money. They are not going to enter into a business deal where they have to provide startup costs and then get a shared return that is less than what they initially spent.
Unless they were just being nice.

Correct, now explain that to RAZ ;-)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 12-02-2017 2:36 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 83 of 132 (824727)
12-02-2017 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by RAZD
12-02-2017 3:37 PM


Re: What if the owners or shareholders are the workers?
RAZD writes:

Your biases are showing.

I think not, kettle, just facts. I see you'renot immune from your favourite confirmation bias. Coops are a minority part of your economy - about $658bn out of $19 trillion.

Now that could be due to all the workers being committed to the success of the company instead of just the owner ... or it could be due to consumers supporting their community organizations instead of remote corporations ...

Or it could be due to the co-op being a better model to realize the goal of the entity.

Or it could be that workers are tired of oligarchic corporations. Several co-ops have risen from the ashes of a failed company.

Co-ops are ok, but given that the model has been around forever, you need to explain why they are still a minority part of modern economies. If thy're so obviously great, what's stopping them?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by RAZD, posted 12-02-2017 3:37 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by RAZD, posted 12-04-2017 8:18 AM Tangle has responded

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1825
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 84 of 132 (824729)
12-02-2017 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Tangle
12-02-2017 6:03 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
Tangle posits:

If you pay your employees more than your competitor you either have to employ fewer people or raise your prices.

or maybe you could SELL MORE WIDGETS?


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2017 6:03 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2017 6:59 PM xongsmith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 85 of 132 (824730)
12-02-2017 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by xongsmith
12-02-2017 6:49 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
xonngsmith writes:

or maybe you could SELL MORE WIDGETS?

If you have higher costs than your competitors, how can you sell more widgets than them? They will always out compete you on price and eventually force you into unprofitability.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by xongsmith, posted 12-02-2017 6:49 PM xongsmith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 12-03-2017 1:09 PM Tangle has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 86 of 132 (824745)
12-03-2017 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Tangle
12-02-2017 6:03 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
It doesn't really matter how you play around with the numbers (ignoring taxation differences), you have to create a regime of out payments that result in a profitable company able to compete with other companies in the same market. If you pay your employees more than your competitor you either have to employ fewer people or raise your prices.

False. Costco pays workers more, has the same prices as Walmart. What they don't have is the Waltons.

Sure but shareholders can choose where to invest, a rational investor wouldn't invest in a company that paid its employees far more that the going rate and was therefore less profitable - all other things being equal.

Again, you are blinded by your preconceptions. Again Costco v Walmart proves you wrong.

Co-ops go toe to toe with oligarchist companies in the marketplace and provide products at the same price while paying employees more, because they share.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2017 6:03 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by NosyNed, posted 12-03-2017 10:43 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 88 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2017 11:25 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8802
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


(1)
Message 87 of 132 (824748)
12-03-2017 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by RAZD
12-03-2017 9:19 AM


Costco vs Walmart
And exactly because of all that I have spent less than $10 in Walmart in the last 10 years and spend a few 1000 a year at Costco.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by RAZD, posted 12-03-2017 9:19 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 88 of 132 (824752)
12-03-2017 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by RAZD
12-03-2017 9:19 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
RAZD writes:

False. Costco pays workers more, has the same prices as Walmart. What they don't have is the Waltons.

Co-ops go toe to toe with oligarchist companies in the marketplace and provide products at the same price while paying employees more, because they share.

I'm afraid I know nothing about the relative economics of Costo and Walmart but the argument is moot. There are many examples of efficient and well run co-ops, but you have to deal with the general point of why they're only in a minority in our economies.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by RAZD, posted 12-03-2017 9:19 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 89 of 132 (824763)
12-03-2017 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Tangle
12-02-2017 6:59 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
Tangle writes:

If you have higher costs than your competitors, how can you sell more widgets than them?


Customer service.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2017 6:59 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2017 2:01 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 90 of 132 (824771)
12-03-2017 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by ringo
12-03-2017 1:09 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
ringo writes:

Customer service.

Customer service, branding, reputation, marketing, packaging, specialisation, distribution etc etc are all ways of diferentiating you service from others which is fine. But if your costs are higher than your competitors and he's doing the same you either take less profit or have higher prices.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 12-03-2017 1:09 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 12-03-2017 2:04 PM Tangle has responded

  
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