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Author Topic:   Executive Pay - Good Capitalism Bad Capitalism?
ringo
Member
Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 91 of 132 (824772)
12-03-2017 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Tangle
12-03-2017 2:01 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
Tangle writes:

But if your costs are higher than your competitors and he's doing the same you either take less profit or have higher prices.


Sure. You charge higher prices for better service. You pay your workers better to provide better service. It's a vicious circle.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2017 2:01 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2017 2:39 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 92 of 132 (824773)
12-03-2017 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by ringo
12-03-2017 2:04 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
ringo writes:

You charge higher prices for better service. You pay your workers better to provide better service. It's a vicious circle.

You don't need to pay your workers more to provide better service. Paying the same person more doesn't change their abilities. It may improve staff turnover and sometimes motivation but it's more likely to make no difference on its own. Customer service is ethos, procedures, supervision and training mainly.

But that apart, it's a myth that people buy products on customer service, it's mostly a customer retention strategy for services. People will tell you all sorts of things about being prepared to spend a bit more for great service but the majority will then go out and buy the cheapest.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 12-03-2017 2:04 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 12-03-2017 2:58 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 97 by xongsmith, posted 12-04-2017 2:11 AM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 93 of 132 (824774)
12-03-2017 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Tangle
12-03-2017 2:39 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
Tangle writes:

People will tell you all sorts of things about being prepared to spend a bit more for great service but the majority will then go out and buy the cheapest.


If that was true, there wouldn't be anybody providing better customer service.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2017 2:39 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2017 4:06 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 94 of 132 (824779)
12-03-2017 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ringo
12-03-2017 2:58 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
ringo writes:

If that was true, there wouldn't be anybody providing better customer service.

It is true - anonymous online shopping has decimated the personal service of the high street for example, and buyers online will use comparison web sites to find the cheapest.

But it doesn't mean that no-one would specialise in a niche where customer service matters.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 12-03-2017 2:58 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 12-04-2017 10:42 AM Tangle has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11841
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 95 of 132 (824798)
12-03-2017 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by RAZD
12-01-2017 3:53 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
Do you think you are getting a fair share of the profit the company makes?

I don't know and I don't care. The arrangement we've made is agreeable to me.

My pay wasn't derived from their profits. If I want a share in the profits then I can buy stock.

If you don't think you are getting a fair share of the profit the company makes then the company is exploiting you (with your willing participation in being exploited).

Yes, and I have sold that it in exchange for money. And that's fair.

And I have the option of using that money to get a share of the profits.

I'm happy. Where's the problem?

If you think you are getting a fair share of the profit the company makes then the company is making the profit WITH the workers.

I understand that, it's just not how we're doing business ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by RAZD, posted 12-01-2017 3:53 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by RAZD, posted 12-04-2017 7:35 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11841
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 96 of 132 (824799)
12-03-2017 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
12-02-2017 2:36 PM


Re: What if the owners or shareholders are the workers?
There's nothing stopping anyone creating co-ops, so why don't they?
Because the wealthy hold most of the investment money. They are not going to enter into a business deal where they have to provide startup costs and then get a shared return that is less than what they initially spent.
Unless they were just being nice.

I think another part of it is that it's harder to get a bunch of people to agree and take responsibility for everything than it is to just have one motherfucker in charge of the whole thing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 12-02-2017 2:36 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by RAZD, posted 12-04-2017 7:11 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1825
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 97 of 132 (824822)
12-04-2017 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Tangle
12-03-2017 2:39 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
Tangle said in Message 92?

You don't need to pay your workers more to provide better service.

While this unfortunately still true, we can grow out of being a country run by assholes.

the majority will then go out and buy the cheapest

sad indeed. ADVERTISING WORKS - the single most egregious condemnation of homo sapiens.


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2017 2:39 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2017 9:41 AM xongsmith has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 98 of 132 (824830)
12-04-2017 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by New Cat's Eye
12-03-2017 6:43 PM


Re: What if the owners or shareholders are the workers?
I think another part of it is that it's harder to get a bunch of people to agree and take responsibility for everything than it is to just have one motherfucker in charge of the whole thing.

So sayeth the willing subservient serf to the smiling king.

Guess you're not a big fan of democracy ... but wait ...

Why couldn't the "motherfucker in charge" be democratically elected by the people in the company? Isn't that how representative democracies work?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-03-2017 6:43 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 99 of 132 (824831)
12-04-2017 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by New Cat's Eye
12-03-2017 6:38 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
I don't know and I don't care. The arrangement we've made is agreeable to me.

I'm happy. Where's the problem?

So you appear to think you get a fair (enough) share.

Side note: I wonder how much that satisfaction is due to knowing you get more wages than people working minimum wage.

quote:
Lyndon Johnson quote

"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -Lyndon B. Johnson

A lot of American economic and social policy can be read using this Rosetta stone. The entirety of the conservative/libertarian economic strategy of transfering the social burden of the rich to the middle class and poor is to get them to demonize, as Paul Krugman put it, "those people", and blind them about their own increasingly exploited situation.


Seems to me this also goes to how people feel about their wages relative to the minimum wage.

My pay wasn't derived from their profits. If I want a share in the profits then I can buy stock.

You pay comes out of overhead, which is taken out of gross returns to result in net returns, eg - profit.

The larger your share is, the higher the overhead is, and if gross returns is not increased to compensate (raising prices), then it reduces net returns and profit. So it does come out of profit.

If I want a share in the profits then I can buy stock.
And I have the option of using that money to get a share of the profits.

Only if (a) your pay is large enough to leave you with the discretionary money (wages above living costs) to afford the stock and (b) if there is stock available to buy (not all companies issue stock).

Would I be right in assuming you have some investments (IRA, savings, mutual funds, etc)? That gives you future security (that people on minimum wage don't have) and a feeling (satisfaction) that you are getting somewhere in the economy. You just aren't tied to how well the company succeeds the way people that earn a share of the profit in a co-op do.

I understand that, it's just not how we're doing business ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Nice ascii graphic.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-03-2017 6:38 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 11:13 AM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 100 of 132 (824832)
12-04-2017 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Tangle
12-02-2017 6:30 PM


Re: What if the owners or shareholders are the workers?
I think not, kettle, just facts. I see you'renot immune from your favourite confirmation bias. Coops are a minority part of your economy - about $658bn out of $19 trillion.

And before the American Revolution, the number of countries that were democratic was a minority of the forms of government in the world. Things have changed since then, things are changing now.

The first reaction to oligarchic company operation was worker unions, workers coming together to cooperate and provide better returns for their members by having a stronger voice in negotiations with the owners.

Unions are democratic cooperatives with elected leaders. Because of unions we have ...

quote:
Time Off—another Reason to Be Thankful for Unions

As Labor Day approaches, working Americans, both union and non-union, have a long list of reasons to thank the labor movement--including these that give workers the right to paid and unpaid leave.

  1. Weekends Off: Massive union strikes in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries led to shorter work weeks with weekends off. This allowed Americans to be home with loved ones instead of constantly working.
  2. Paid Vacations: With summer coming to a close, take time to thank your union for the paid vacation time that made it possible to rest and relax with your family.
  3. Family & Medical Leave Act (FMLA): Unions spearheaded the fight that resulted in the passage of this law that gives eligible employees the right to take up to 12 weeks of job-protected unpaid leave annually for family and medical reasons.
  4. Breaks at Work—Including Lunch: Although they are now federally mandated, breaks haven't always been an employee right. Studies have shown, breaks provide important rest periods that improve safety and productivity.
  5. Sick Leave: Without paid sick leave, many workers couldn't afford to take the time necessary to recover from illnesses and accidents.
  6. Paid Holidays: Labor Day is one of nine paid holidays offered by most employers in the U.S. As you spend time with family and friends this Labor Day, thank your union.
  7. Military Leave: The Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act ensures those that serve their country can keep civilian employment and benefits, and seek employment free from discrimination.
  8. 40-hour Work Week: Americans once worked 60 hours a week or more. It wasn't until the 1950's that 40-hour work weeks and 8-hour work days became standard across America thanks to union negotiations.

You can also include child labor laws and minimum wage laws.

Just for starters.

Still think cooperatives are an inconsequential share of the economy?

Co-ops are ok, but given that the model has been around forever, ...

Really?

quote:
History of the cooperative movement (wiki)

The history of the cooperative movement concerns the origins and history of cooperatives. Although cooperative arrangements, such as mutual insurance, and principles of cooperation existed long before, the cooperative movement began with the application of cooperative principles to business organization.

The cooperative movement began in Europe in the 19th century, primarily in Britain and France, although The Shore Porters Society claims to be one of the world's first cooperatives, being established in Aberdeen in 1498 (although it has since demutualized to become a private partnership).[1] The industrial revolution and the increasing mechanism of the economy transformed society and threatened the livelihoods of many workers. The concurrent labour and social movements and the issues they attempted to address describe the climate at the time.

The first documented consumer cooperative was founded in 1769,[2] in a barely furnished cottage in Fenwick, East Ayrshire, when local weavers manhandled a sack of oatmeal into John Walker's whitewashed front room and began selling the contents at a discount, forming the Fenwick Weavers' Society.

In the decades that followed, several cooperatives or cooperative societies formed including Lennoxtown Friendly Victualling Society, founded in 1812.[3]

By 1830, there were several hundred co-operatives.[4] Some were initially successful, but most cooperatives founded in the early 19th century had failed by 1840.[5] However, Lockhurst Lane Industrial Co-operative Society (founded in 1832 and now Heart of England Co-operative Society), and Galashiels and Hawick Co-operative Societies (1839 or earlier, merged with The Co-operative Group) still trade today.[6][7]

It was not until 1844 when the Rochdale Society of Equitable Pioneers established the "Rochdale Principles" on which they ran their cooperative, that the basis for development and growth of the modern cooperative movement was established.[8]

Financially, cooperative banks, called credit unions in the US, were invented in Germany in the mid-19th century, first by Franz Hermann Schulze-Delitzsch (1852, urban), then by Friedrich Wilhelm Raiffeisen (1864, rural). While Schulze-Delitzsch is chronologically earlier, Raiffeisen has proven more influential over time – see history of credit unions. In Britain, the friendly society, building society, and mutual savings bank were earlier forms of similar institutions.


So I guess the USA has been around forever ...

... you need to explain why they are still a minority part of modern economies. If thy're so obviously great, what's stopping them?

What's stopping unions.

Education and awareness of workers, lower-class and middle-class, that there is a better way. The American Revolution didn't happen spontaneously.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2017 6:30 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2017 9:20 AM RAZD has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 101 of 132 (824836)
12-04-2017 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by RAZD
12-04-2017 8:18 AM


Re: What if the owners or shareholders are the workers?
RAZD writes:

Still think cooperatives are an inconsequential share of the economy?

Yes, because they are. You're confusing progressive liberal policy with cooperative companies.

So I guess the USA has been around forever ...

Don't be a dick, you know I meant that co-ops have been around for a very long time - longer even than the form of company you're railing against, the limited company.

Education and awareness of workers, lower-class and middle-class, that there is a better way. The American Revolution didn't happen spontaneously.

Right, a worker's revolution, how very un-American.

If your country actually wanted more socially conscious policies and practices it would have voted for them, but even obviously beneficial things like good health care gets voted down let alone the sort of state intervention you're talking about. The USA is at the far right of modern democracies, it resists more socially creative and equality based policy and it appears to be where the majority of you want to be.

But to get back to co-ops, the mechanisms have been in place to create them for hundreds of years, you need to work out why they haven't developed the way you'd like them to.

I can give you some ideas if you like but you'll need to get your cognitative dissonance under control first.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by RAZD, posted 12-04-2017 8:18 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by RAZD, posted 12-06-2017 11:59 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 102 of 132 (824837)
12-04-2017 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by xongsmith
12-04-2017 2:11 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
xongsmith writes:

While this unfortunately still true, we can grow out of being a country run by assholes.

The rest of the developed world is desperate for this to happen. But we fear the worst - at least for a while.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by xongsmith, posted 12-04-2017 2:11 AM xongsmith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 103 of 132 (824840)
12-04-2017 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Tangle
12-03-2017 4:06 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
Tangle writes:

But it doesn't mean that no-one would specialise in a niche where customer service matters.


You said:
quote:
If you have higher costs than your competitors, how can you sell more widgets than them? Message 85

and I replied:
quote:
Customer service. Message 89

You could have just agreed with me from the start.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2017 4:06 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2017 10:46 AM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 104 of 132 (824841)
12-04-2017 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by ringo
12-04-2017 10:42 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
ringo writes:

You could have just agreed with me from the start.

But then I'd have been wrong too.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 12-04-2017 10:42 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 12-04-2017 10:48 AM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 105 of 132 (824843)
12-04-2017 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Tangle
12-04-2017 10:46 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
Tangle writes:

But then I'd have been wrong too.


Since you're (now) saying the same thing I said, no.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2017 10:46 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2017 11:21 AM ringo has responded

  
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