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Author Topic:   Executive Pay - Good Capitalism Bad Capitalism?
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11840
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 106 of 132 (824849)
12-04-2017 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by RAZD
12-04-2017 7:35 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
I wonder how much that satisfaction is due to knowing you get more wages than people working minimum wage.

Not at all.

My pay wasn't derived from their profits. If I want a share in the profits then I can buy stock.

You pay comes out of overhead, which is taken out of gross returns to result in net returns, eg - profit.

The larger your share is, the higher the overhead is, and if gross returns is not increased to compensate (raising prices), then it reduces net returns and profit. So it does come out of profit.

So, I bill clients for my time and they pay my employer at a bill rate and my pay is a portion of that payment. What's left goes towards overhead and profit.

If I'm not billing then the company isn't making money off me - that's where my leverage comes from.

Only if (a) your pay is large enough to leave you with the discretionary money (wages above living costs) to afford the stock and (b) if there is stock available to buy (not all companies issue stock).

Both of those are true.

Would I be right in assuming you have some investments (IRA, savings, mutual funds, etc)? That gives you future security (that people on minimum wage don't have) and a feeling (satisfaction) that you are getting somewhere in the economy. You just aren't tied to how well the company succeeds the way people that earn a share of the profit in a co-op do.

Right. And I don't care.

From Message 98:

I think another part of it is that it's harder to get a bunch of people to agree and take responsibility for everything than it is to just have one motherfucker in charge of the whole thing.

So sayeth the willing subservient serf to the smiling king.

I know you're full of shit when you have to resort to personal insults.

Guess you're not a big fan of democracy ...

In business? Yeah, not so much. But it really depends.

Why couldn't the "motherfucker in charge" be democratically elected by the people in the company? Isn't that how representative democracies work?

Sure, and they could be. I'm not saying they can't. Although, if one person starts the business by themself then you can't really have a democracy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by RAZD, posted 12-04-2017 7:35 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 12-04-2017 11:17 AM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 126 by RAZD, posted 12-06-2017 12:23 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 107 of 132 (824850)
12-04-2017 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by New Cat's Eye
12-04-2017 11:13 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
I always wondered why you didnt like unions....now I'm starting to see your mindset... My Republican friend always tells me that its not his responsibility to fund my retirement. They just want us to die and get out of the way so that their kids have room to thrive.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 11:13 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 11:51 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5234
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 108 of 132 (824853)
12-04-2017 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by ringo
12-04-2017 10:48 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
ringo writes:

Since you're (now) saying the same thing I said, no.

I said

“People will tell you all sorts of things about being prepared to spend a bit more for great service but the majority will then go out and buy the cheapest.”
I
You said

“If that was true, there wouldn't be anybody providing better customer service.”

In some markets and for some customers it will make sense to offer great customer service because some people will pay the extra for it. But most of the time they won't. Your simple generalisation is factually and logically wrong.

There's a classic case here in the UK where the cheap and horrible Ryan Air do disgraceful things to their customers which they bitterly complain about. But they just go back and buy another seat anyway because they're dirt cheap. Michael O'Leary has changed how all the other airlines work - for the worse - but it is at least cheap. A couple of his quotes on customer service:

On apologies: “Are we going to say sorry for our lack of customer service? Absolutely not.”

On Ryanair’s image: “One of the weaknesses of the company now is it is a bit cheap and cheerful and overly nasty, and that reflects my personality.”

His massacre of customer service has made him very rich. RAZD will love this one

On beginning a press conference to announce the annual results: “I’m here with Howard Miller and Michael Cawley, our two deputy chief executives. But they’re presently making love in the gentleman’s toilets, such is their excitement at today’s results.”


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 12-04-2017 10:48 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 12-04-2017 11:28 AM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 109 of 132 (824857)
12-04-2017 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Tangle
12-04-2017 11:21 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
Tangle writes:

You said

“If that was true, there wouldn't be anybody providing better customer service.”


And you agreed that there are businesses providing better customer service. That's all I'm saying.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2017 11:21 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2017 11:31 AM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5234
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 110 of 132 (824858)
12-04-2017 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by ringo
12-04-2017 11:28 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
ringo writes:

And you agreed that there are businesses providing better customer service. That's all I'm saying.

Sky is blue, water is wet.....


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 12-04-2017 11:28 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by ringo, posted 12-04-2017 11:49 AM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 111 of 132 (824862)
12-04-2017 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Tangle
12-04-2017 11:31 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
Tangle writes:

Sky is blue, water is wet.....


Indeed, so you can stop pretending that I'm wrong.

Edited by ringo, : Speling.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2017 11:31 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2017 12:06 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11840
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 112 of 132 (824863)
12-04-2017 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
12-04-2017 11:17 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
I always wondered why you didnt like unions....now I'm starting to see your mindset... My Republican friend always tells me that its not his responsibility to fund my retirement. They just want us to die and get out of the way so that their kids have room to thrive.

Well that's not why I don't like unions.

I've just never had a need for one and my experience in dealing with them has been unpleasant.

In another post you mentioned differences in mindsets on fairness. I believe in having fairness in opportunity but I don't expect fairness in outcome. And I'm against a state trying to force fairness in outcome by restricting opportunity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 12-04-2017 11:17 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by NoNukes, posted 12-04-2017 12:05 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10116
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 113 of 132 (824865)
12-04-2017 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by New Cat's Eye
12-04-2017 11:51 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
I believe in having fairness in opportunity but I don't expect fairness in outcome. And I'm against a state trying to force fairness in outcome by restricting opportunity.

I think everybody is onboard with this, and that the difference in where people stand lies in what they define as opportunity vs outcome? Is getting a great education and opportunity or an outcome? Is not having lead in your water an opportunity or an outcome? Is not getting "shot while black" an opportunity or an outcome?

I am not pegging you on either end of the spectrum. What I am challenging you on is the idea that people who come out differently than you are morally inferior or restrictors of opportunity. It is a matter of fact that opportunities are not infinite and that providing one person opportunities often deprives another of the same opportunity. Any leveling of the playing field, fair or not, will have that effect.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 11:51 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 12:49 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5234
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 114 of 132 (824866)
12-04-2017 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by ringo
12-04-2017 11:49 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
ringo writes:

Indeed, so you can stop pretending that I'm wrong.

This..

quote:
If that was true [that the majority will buy the cheapest product or service], there wouldn't be anybody providing better customer service.

...is wrong. But I'm done, the sky is now black.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by ringo, posted 12-04-2017 11:49 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 12-04-2017 12:11 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 115 of 132 (824867)
12-04-2017 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Tangle
12-04-2017 12:06 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
Tangle writes:

This..

quote:
If that was true [that the majority will buy the cheapest product or service], there wouldn't be anybody providing better customer service.

...is wrong.

And yet you agreed with it in Message 94: "But it doesn't mean that no-one would specialise in a niche where customer service matters."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2017 12:06 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11840
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 116 of 132 (824869)
12-04-2017 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by NoNukes
12-04-2017 12:05 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
I believe in having fairness in opportunity but I don't expect fairness in outcome. And I'm against a state trying to force fairness in outcome by restricting opportunity.

I think everybody is onboard with this, and that the difference in where people stand lies in what they define as opportunity vs outcome?

It seems to me that the leftists want to force equality of outcome.

Is getting a great education and opportunity or an outcome?

Getting the education is an outcome. Having access to it is the opportunity.

People should have fair access to education. It isn't unfair that some people don't end up getting it.

Is not having lead in your water an opportunity or an outcome? Is not getting "shot while black" an opportunity or an outcome?

I dunno - neither? Doesn't feel apt.

I am not pegging you on either end of the spectrum. What I am challenging you on is the idea that people who come out differently than you are morally inferior or restrictors of opportunity.

I don't think either of those things.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by NoNukes, posted 12-04-2017 12:05 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by NoNukes, posted 12-04-2017 5:55 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7272
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 117 of 132 (824886)
12-04-2017 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by RAZD
12-02-2017 9:07 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn
RAZD writes:

So you agree that having a powerful voice in negotiating compensation with "the people holding the purse strings" is more likely to lead to a fair(er) share of the profits of the corporation (and sports are corporations), and that the players unions means that it is more equitably shared with all the players?

But then we come to the star players. Are they exploiting the system to get more than other players? What's a fair share?

League minimum for a rookie player is almost 1 million a year. The top salary is 32 million a year. That seems pretty equitable to me. Even rookie players who barely make it into the league are making a really nice paycheck.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by RAZD, posted 12-02-2017 9:07 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10116
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 118 of 132 (824888)
12-04-2017 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by New Cat's Eye
12-04-2017 12:49 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
NoNukes writes:

What I am challenging you on is the idea that people who come out differently than you are morally inferior or restrictors of opportunity.

NCI writes:

I don't think either of those things.

You are the one who brought the idea up.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 12:49 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 5:58 PM NoNukes has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11840
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 119 of 132 (824889)
12-04-2017 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by NoNukes
12-04-2017 5:55 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
NoNukes writes:

What I am challenging you on is the idea that people who come out differently than you are morally inferior or restrictors of opportunity.

NCI writes:

I don't think either of those things.

You are the one who brought the idea up.

You must've misread me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by NoNukes, posted 12-04-2017 5:55 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by NoNukes, posted 12-04-2017 9:18 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10116
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 120 of 132 (824903)
12-04-2017 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by New Cat's Eye
12-04-2017 5:58 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
NCE writes:

You must've misread me.

That is certainly possible. You did say this.

NCE writes:

And I'm against a state trying to force fairness in outcome by restricting opportunity.

I'm going to assume that you don't believe anybody is for such a thing given your comments. So why'd you bring that up?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 5:58 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 10:13 PM NoNukes has responded

    
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