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Author Topic:   Tentativity and The Bible
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15947
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 16 of 48 (674297)
09-27-2012 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by LimpSpider
09-27-2012 1:19 AM


(This is related, but not exactly on the topic, High-versus low-Context culture: A comparison of Chinese, Korean, and American cultures talking about current cultures of which I am describing)

Israel was a high-context culture. These ďimplied missing bitsĒ are actually assumed to be common knowledge to the reader.

But ...

Since you are a Christian ... is it not the case that Jesus was radically against the culture of Israel? So much so that he stood against the conventional interpretation of the laws concerning sabbath-breaking and adultery? So much so that the Bible repeatedly portrays him as being against the traditional interpretation as defended by the Pharisees? So much so that when he claimed to be the Messiah then the religious experts of Israel decided that he should be put to death as a blasphemer? And not just the experts, but the ordinary people who cried out that Pilate should free Barabbas rather than Jesus.

If you believe the gospels, then the Jews did not understand their scriptures, and were so far away from understanding them that when their promised Messiah turned up they wanted him to be tortured to death.

So if you are a Christian then you have to admit that the most important idea ever was incomprehensible and indeed blasphemous to the Jews, the very people for whom the OT was written.

You write:

LimpSpider writes:

Israel was a high-context culture. These ďimplied missing bitsĒ are actually assumed to be common knowledge to the reader.

And yet the readers of the OT, using their "common knowledge" cried: "Crucify him! Crucify him!" The "implied missing bits" were not such "common knowledge" as to prevent them from sadistically murdering God incarnate. But you think that their consensus --- their "common knowledge" --- is sufficient for us to agree on less important stuff than whether it is OK to torture God to death?

To be a Christian, you have to believe that the most important fact in the world ever was concealed and hidden in the OT from the Jews: from their experts, from their religious enthusiasts, and from the common people. So let's hear no more about this "high context culture".

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by LimpSpider, posted 09-27-2012 1:19 AM LimpSpider has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by LimpSpider, posted 09-27-2012 7:48 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1655 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 17 of 48 (674307)
09-27-2012 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by ringo
09-27-2012 11:50 AM


quote:
And the intended reader was Israel, not you. That's exactly why the Bible should not be taken literally. It should be taken in the context in which it was meant.
If you understand that, why are you a creationist?

Yes, the intended reader was Israel. So, if we read it like the Israelites, we would understand the text in the same way as the Israelites. Therefore, given this, add our more substantial knowledge, and we can definitely see if itís the Truth or not. After all, I think that Science is merely one way of looking for the truth, or in some cases, itís called knowledge.

Why creationists here worn out so fast? Because there are so many of you and so few of us. Each of you post a reply to something we say. We have to post a reply to all that you say. Otherwise, itís aha. You donít have an argument. Get me? Itís not the debate. Itís the volume of it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by ringo, posted 09-27-2012 11:50 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 09-28-2012 12:16 PM LimpSpider has responded

  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1655 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 18 of 48 (674318)
09-27-2012 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Dr Adequate
09-27-2012 6:08 PM


Dr., Re: first point. The Jes did understand the Scriptures. Jesus was not against the Scriptures. He was against the additional laws that the Pharisees imposed on the people, all of which were excessive. The ďexpertsĒ in this case were jealous of Him, He was much the more popular. Common crowds can be stirred up quite easily. Iíve seen it done before.

quote:
And yet the readers of the OT, using their "common knowledge" cried: "Crucify him! Crucify him!" The "implied missing bits" were not such "common knowledge" as to prevent them from sadistically murdering God incarnate. But you think that their consensus --- their "common knowledge" --- is sufficient for us to agree on less important stuff than whether it is OK to torture God to death?
To be a Christian, you have to believe that the most important fact in the world ever was concealed and hidden in the OT from the Jews: from their experts, from their religious enthusiasts, and from the common people. So let's hear no more about this "high context culture".

You make mistakes here. Iíve already shown why they wanted him crucified. It was not use of their common knowledge, it was use of their shared jealousy. So this ďhigh-context cultureĒ, supported by the historical community, as Iíve shown, stands.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2012 6:08 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2012 8:10 PM LimpSpider has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15947
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 19 of 48 (674325)
09-27-2012 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by LimpSpider
09-27-2012 7:48 PM


So ... what are you saying? They knew, from their "high context" reading of the scriptures that he was their promised Messiah, but out of "jealousy" they decided to go ahead and crucify him anyway?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by LimpSpider, posted 09-27-2012 7:48 PM LimpSpider has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by LimpSpider, posted 09-27-2012 8:54 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1655 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 20 of 48 (674332)
09-27-2012 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Dr Adequate
09-27-2012 8:10 PM


Nope, I did not say they KNEW it was so. They wanted Him crucified because they were jealous, not because he was the Messiah. You see, He hadnít yet fulfilled the prophecies, which is another topic altogether.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2012 8:10 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2012 8:56 PM LimpSpider has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15947
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 21 of 48 (674333)
09-27-2012 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by LimpSpider
09-27-2012 8:54 PM


But this doesn't really answer the point. They had all this "high-context" knowledge of the OT. Yay for them. But they didn't recognize their own Messiah promised in the OT when he turned up. How is that? You write:

Israel was a high-context culture. These ďimplied missing bitsĒ are actually assumed to be common knowledge to the reader.

And yet apparently they missed the most important fact in the whole universe. "Common knowledge"? Apparently not.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by LimpSpider, posted 09-27-2012 8:54 PM LimpSpider has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by LimpSpider, posted 09-27-2012 9:37 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1655 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 22 of 48 (674340)
09-27-2012 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Dr Adequate
09-27-2012 8:56 PM


How is that? I think that's a good question. You see, at the point where Jesus came to Earth, there had not been a prophet for around 400 years. Thus the appearance of Jesus was something they were not expecting. It was not, however, common knowledge that the Messiah would be Jesus. He did not absolutely say He was the Son of God until the High Priests interrogated him. Even then they had no reason to believe that He was indeed the Messiah, since it is not stated in the Scriptures.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2012 8:56 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13332
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 23 of 48 (674391)
09-28-2012 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by LimpSpider
09-27-2012 7:16 PM


LimpSpider writes:

So, if we read it like the Israelites, we would understand the text in the same way as the Israelites.


The ones most likely to read it like Israelites are modern Jews, who can read the Hebrew. So why is it that fundamentalist CHristians often disagree with the Jewish view of the Old Testament?

LimpSpider writes:

Why creationists here worn out so fast? Because there are so many of you and so few of us.


Then bring reinforcements. If evolution is dying as creationists claim, you should have an endless supply of adherents to inundate us.

LimpSpider writes:

Each of you post a reply to something we say. We have to post a reply to all that you say. Otherwise, itís aha. You donít have an argument.


You don't have to respond to everybody. It's to your advantage to have several versions of an argument to choose from. Respond to the one(s) thatyou have the best answers for.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by LimpSpider, posted 09-27-2012 7:16 PM LimpSpider has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 7:07 AM ringo has responded

  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1655 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 24 of 48 (674454)
09-29-2012 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by ringo
09-28-2012 12:16 PM


quote:
The ones most likely to read it like Israelites are modern Jews, who can read the Hebrew. So why is it that fundamentalist CHristians often disagree with the Jewish view of the Old Testament?

How exactly do fundamentalist Christians disagree? I seriously do not know

quote:
Then bring reinforcements. If evolution is dying as creationists claim, you should have an endless supply of adherents to inundate us.

I hardly make such a claim. In fact, the evidence points to the contrary. I also do not know of many other creationists.

quote:
You don't have to respond to everybody. It's to your advantage to have several versions of an argument to choose from. Respond to the one(s) thatyou have the best answers for.

Thatís the problem. I have answers to all of them...
This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 09-28-2012 12:16 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 09-29-2012 12:54 PM LimpSpider has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13332
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 25 of 48 (674488)
09-29-2012 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by LimpSpider
09-29-2012 7:07 AM


LimpSpider writes:

How exactly do fundamentalist Christians disagree? I seriously do not know


I assumed that you were a fundamentalist Christian, like most creationists. Aren't you?

The basic difference is that Jews read the Bible as literature while fundamentalists read it like a newspaper.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 7:07 AM LimpSpider has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 6:43 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1655 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 26 of 48 (674502)
09-29-2012 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ringo
09-29-2012 12:54 PM


I don't read the Bible like that. Literal would be too restrictive. Rather, I use a literal-historical-grammatical-contextual reading
This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 09-29-2012 12:54 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

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 Message 27 by Theodoric, posted 09-30-2012 6:53 PM LimpSpider has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 27 of 48 (674592)
09-30-2012 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by LimpSpider
09-29-2012 6:43 PM


Rather, I use a literal-historical-grammatical-contextual reading

In other words.
You make it mean what you want it to mean.

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by LimpSpider, posted 09-29-2012 6:43 PM LimpSpider has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by LimpSpider, posted 10-01-2012 8:58 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
LimpSpider
Member (Idle past 1655 days)
Posts: 96
Joined: 09-27-2012


Message 28 of 48 (674701)
10-01-2012 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Theodoric
09-30-2012 6:53 PM


I have already explained myself, Theodoric. You are simply twisting words

{Note: Message 29 was spam and was deleted. - Adminnemooseus}

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Note.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Theodoric, posted 09-30-2012 6:53 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
lightz1 
Suspended Member (Idle past 868 days)
Posts: 3
Joined: 12-11-2014


Message 30 of 48 (744528)
12-11-2014 9:28 PM


Bro, you are great, and i know a nice web site please check this

______________________
More Exciting News: Asshole's spam content deleted.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Spam deleted.


Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 3:05 PM lightz1 has not yet responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 31 of 48 (767362)
08-28-2015 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by lightz1
12-11-2014 9:28 PM


Response to the content of the OP:

There is a way that seems right to a man that will only bring him death

The biblical account of creation is the only one to rely upon .... communicated by the Creator Himself

Things to ponder about the biblical account:

Why did the earth need a makeover about 6000 years ago?

How old is the universe?

How long has mankind been on the planet?

Why are all of the other planets in the earth's solar system uninhabitable?

Is the earth and the others of the same age?

When was this event? [Job 38:1-7] .... who was present?

Why is there a breaching of time lapse between Genesis 1:1 ..... and Genesis 1:2?

What was the condition of the earth as viewed from the planet and why?

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by lightz1, posted 12-11-2014 9:28 PM lightz1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 08-29-2015 12:21 PM Straightshot has responded

    
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