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Author Topic:   When does human life begin?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 327 (649554)
01-24-2012 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by shadow71
01-23-2012 7:54 PM


I am saying that there is a point when life begins,
Well, there isn't. Its gradual. You're asking; at what point in the following picture does black become white:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by shadow71, posted 01-23-2012 7:54 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Larni, posted 01-24-2012 3:20 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 109 by shadow71, posted 01-25-2012 3:36 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 68 of 327 (649628)
01-24-2012 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Larni
01-24-2012 3:20 PM


It ceases to be black as soon as it becomes grey.
It ceases to be grey when it becomes white.
Black does not actually become white.
The grey is where black is becomming white.
The point still stands: He's asking for a point where there's a gradient.

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 Message 65 by Larni, posted 01-24-2012 3:20 PM Larni has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 327 (649803)
01-25-2012 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by shadow71
01-25-2012 3:36 PM


Would you agree that at some point human life begins, even if, as you say its gradual?
Saying it is gradual necessarily admits that at some time it begins. Or am I missing something?
If its gradual then there is no "point".
It begins, but gradually, ergo there's no "point" where it begins.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by shadow71, posted 01-25-2012 3:36 PM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 247 of 327 (650701)
02-02-2012 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Straggler
02-02-2012 8:27 AM


Re: "Human Life"
But those who consider every zygote to be a precious soul imbued person should surely be campaigning for this overwhelming majority of "people" rather than getting worked up about a tiny tiny number of intentionally aborted zygotes.
I think the issue there, for them, is that in the former its just nature taking its course but in the latter, its man intentionally doing it.
Given the facts of natural abortion objecting to intentional abortions seems a bit like campaigning against the deadly dangers of electric blankets in the middle of a minefield during a machine gun battle.
Maybe: "Why prosecute any murderers when there's tons of people dying everyday anyways?"
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Straggler, posted 02-02-2012 8:27 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Straggler, posted 02-02-2012 11:12 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 250 of 327 (650711)
02-02-2012 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Straggler
02-02-2012 11:12 AM


Re: "Human Life"
Then my response would be - Why aren't they so blase about letting nature take it's course when it comes to other natural causes of death? E.g diseases.
Some of them are... But I don't think its so much about "saving life" as it is about "punishing wrong-doers". They don't really care about the child, they care about the adult doing something they think is wrong.
If they really believe these zygotes are people then they seem awfully apathetic about the fact that 60% of people are killed by this single factor.
I don't think we can doubt the sincerity of their belief; and they're prolly not well aware of that fact. Too, there's not much they can do about it. Its easy to take medicine to fight a disease but stopping natural abortions isn't even something we're capable of.
Well my answer would be that when it comes to real people rather than zygotes we should both stop murderers and tackle things like disease.
You can't just deny the premise like that. But that *is* what they think they're doing: stopping the "murderers" who are the people who abort.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Straggler, posted 02-02-2012 11:12 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Straggler, posted 02-02-2012 12:44 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 254 of 327 (650720)
02-02-2012 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Straggler
02-02-2012 12:44 PM


Re: "Human Life"
CS writes:
But I don't think its so much about "saving life" as it is about "punishing wrong-doers".
And that about sums it up.
So you can see why they're not championing for the reduction of natural abortions.
The whole issue of saving souls and safeguarding the rights of poor little zygotes is just a pile of old nonsense.
Well, it could just be a post-hoc rationalization - which I realize doesn't mean it isn't nonsense; but it could still be an honest approach.
They don’t actually care about these things or think of them as real people any more than I do.
I dunno about that... they might.
It’s all about defining human life in emotive ways so that they can apply words like kill and murder to abortions and then view themselves as the messengers of God’s disapproval and retribution.
I'd bet there's more to it for people who believe that unborns have souls.
CS writes:
I don't think we can doubt the sincerity of their belief
I don’t doubt the sincerity with which they wish to impose their nonsensical beliefs onto others. What I doubt the sincerity of is the claim that this has much to do with saving souls or safeguarding the welfare of poor little conceptuses.
I don't doubt that there are people out there who do sincerely want to save the souls of the unborn, etc. But I don't think that's a position arrived at through study and thought, its more of a position from ignorance.
What I doubt the sincerity of is questions like When does human life begin? because they only seem interested in science providing an answer that justifies their condemnation of others. And the whole 60% thing rather pisses on that fire.
Well, to be fair, the author of the OP was unaware of that and seems to be having cognitive dissonance in accepting it. But that doesn't mean you ought to speculate on his motives.
Seriously what is the point of imbuing a few cell conceptus with a soul for a day or two? So it can exert it’s freewill and be divinely judged on it’s actions? It’s laughable. Why not just cut out that pointless step and put the soul in heaven (or wherever it is supposed to end up) from the get-go?
That's a whole 'nother discussion...
The whole notion of every conceptus having a soul is entirely potty and those who try to take that position in order to impose their beliefs on others should be shown just how insane their position is.
I doubt the entirety of it. I'd bet a lot of them are ignorantly sincere and just haven't thought, or don't want to think, it all the way through. I don't think thier motives are as malicious as you're painting them, but no doubt some of them are. The militant pro-life crowd is nothing to admire, and they'll lie for Jesus, but I don't think they represent the whole anti-abortion crowd.
I, myself, am pro-choice even though I'm anti-abortion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Straggler, posted 02-02-2012 12:44 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 256 by Straggler, posted 02-02-2012 1:23 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 262 of 327 (650768)
02-02-2012 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Perdition
02-02-2012 3:54 PM


Re: Previous thread/s
Even if you assume a soul, it would seem the soul is connected to the brain some how because affecting the brain, and only affecting the brain, affects that which we attribute to a soul.
I'm just trying to show that even if we assume a soul, a brain still seems to be a necessary component.
The soul requiring the brain wouldn't be consistent with the soul going off to heaven after you and your brain die. Just sayin'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Perdition, posted 02-02-2012 3:54 PM Perdition has not replied

  
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