Whine & Cheese

And thats sad to see that a company started in the US abandons its own people and embraces the world. People (as labor) have become little more than a bottom line number. Loyalty and nationalism have gone by the wayside and Americans are forced into a common pool with the rest of humanity.This almost leads me into a spinoff for a new topic. Stay tuned.Yes, jar I realize that there is a bigger market in China than in the US. People still have to eat, however. Its sad that the value of grocery workers appears to be under pressure to drop. Whats sadder, however, is that folk like you and Jon almost applaud the change. You place no value on an American any higher than that of any other global citizen. Would you do the same thing to your own children?

I would teach my kids that they need to compete with everyone else in the world and that it will be an exciting, wondrous and fun existence.

Yet its not so exciting and fun to be forced to compete at age 50+ if you have debilitating medical conditions, cant run as fast nor lift as much as the youngsters of the world, live in a nation that has a bill hanging over its head that will likely bankrupt your social welfare, and have few who will vote to help you apart from your peers in similar situations.Looks like the baby boomers who didn't inherit or save enough wealth will be the scapegoats and victims in order to make room for your kids and China's kids. Sad.

Look I'm not really with Phat on this at all. But at the same time there are people around the world so desperate they are willing to sell their own kids. There are kids who scour rubbish dumps for a living. Sweatshops and child labor are rife. The Chinese government seems to give little regard to the safety or well-being of the workforce who implement it's projects.In this environment it is practically impossible for any member of the developed world to compete without sinking to the same unacceptable level. I doubt those working for a pittance in developing countries who constitute the competition would describe their existence as "exciting, woundrous and fun".

And that was also true in both the UK and in the US recently, during my lifetime as a matter of fact. What many folk don't see to remember is that even here in the US, sweat shops and virtual slavery (company towns and company script) existed even into and past WWII.This mill coin as an example was minted in 1941. When people were paid in company script, lived in company houses, could only shop in the company store there was no chance for advancement or mobility. You could not even put aside a nest egg to use to go look for other work.Environmental concerns are a really, really recent development. Again, it is only within my lifetime that more than just lip service has been paid to either environmental concerns of work place safety.For the most part the US and even the UK governments gave little regard to the safety or well-being of the workforce who implement it's projects.But change does happen and there is no reason to expect that similar changes will not happen in China, Brazil, Nigeria, Vietnam, ...

Whether Western levels of material affluence are possible for all in the absence of exploiting the labor and natural resources of poorer nations remains to be seen. I hope it is and the optimist in me believes it is.But I don't see what this hope for the future has to do with the facts of competition in the here and now.

The "here and now" has "gone and went".We are always in the "here and now", and competition has always been an issue.There are no solutions that are any good when the goal is the "here and now".Solutions, if there will be solutions, will take time if they are to be effective.Nor was I talking about levels of affluence, a term that is really vague anyway.Edited by jar, : hit wrong key

Sure. Which still leaves the sort of issues Phat is talking about in the here and now. Competing in the here and now seems to currently involve a race to the bottom rather than the long hard slog to the top that we both hope is achievable in the long run. With increasing population, increasing globalisation and a global freemarket economy wage and labor competition is very arguably greater than it has been. Call it "standard of living" or "wages and conditions of employment" or whatever else you feel makes most sense. On the contrary - The here and now is by definition always with us.

For everyone, though? Is that possible? Will there be no victims in a perfect world?See...i may be wrong, but I believe that in this game of capitalism, there are always exploited classes in order for the game to work. My basic whine...why I started this topic..is because I feel that the US middle class is currently being exploited.Even if we educated ourselves and reinvented ourselves for future competition, at best we are only one of many in the race. This is depressing...hardly as exciting as jar makes it sound. Look, im 52 years old, have health issues, and cant run very fast. Jar may think that every day is a big adventure and that life is one big forest full of little surprises waiting to be discovered, but im getting a little tired of having to forage for food. Capitalism is no longer fun. Cant we all just find another planet to exploit or something? In order to retire in the future, we must earn liveable wages in the here and now. The math has only gotten harder as the bill increases. People sch as Jon who claim that the educated alone should earn the higher wages better prepare to take care of their parents (and Uncles) because we sure as heck are tired of being exploited by the wealthy and its no wonder we resist being pushed aside by the desperate newly educated poor who want our spot..

That should surely be the aim. No? In a perfect world obviously not. But nobody is suggesting that we live in a perfect world. The question is whether capitalism is the best method of unleashing human creativity and innovation to achieve prosperity for all through technology progress etc.My own view is that we haven't developed a better economic system for doing that but that to make capitalism work for the benefit of all requires hard work and constant checks and balances. Freemarket fundamentalism, the formation of runaway economic elites etc. undermines the very reasons we have chosen capitalism over other economic models. I understand that you think the American middle class (do you have anything called a "working class" in America - If so who qualifies?) in particular is getting a raw deal and that you feel a rather strong sense of entitlement and injustice.But in global standard of living terms I suspect you and I are very much still amongst the richest.

I know. I really sound like a jerk don't I? I just don't want to be on the street when I retire.I realize that the rest of the world sees my position in life as their dream and aspiration. And this is well and good. My basic question, however, is whether there is room for everyone. Will they take care of an old white guy or will they take care of their own and their kids before me? I dont mind sharing the spot that I feel I have earned through working hard for thirty years (and being American, of course) but I worry that I may get pushed out of line.

I think you are right to be concerned. But I don't think kicking the ladder away as those behind you scramble up is the answer. Not only is it wrong in a moral sense I don't think it will actually solve your problem.At the moment there seems to be race to the bottom for the majority as a tiny section of the world reap an ever greater portion of the world's collective wealth in the name of "economic freedom" and the right to exploit whoever is least able to stop themselves from being exploited.The way things are going the very concept of things like retirement are going the way of the dodo. On their present trajectory I doubt those "youngsters" you are worried about competing with will ever even have the notion of having "earned" such rights. They will work until they just physically cannot.What is the answer? I dunno. I would like to think that the present course is unsustainable and that things like the occupy movement are the beginning of something bigger. But the pessimist in me is less confident that we won't end up blaming those even poorer than ourselves for our ills whilst the richest race ever further into the distance.Workers of the world unite........(**Straggler raises fist in defiant salute of the forthcoming revolution before going off to pack his bag for work tomorrow at the multi-billion dollar multi-national he works for in his day job**)

Why don't you attend college? You know just by actually attempting to learn more you could be eligible for free money in regard to Pell Grants (provided you don't already have a bachelor's degree) Also, even student loans, provided they are used to offset higher interest credit card debt, could help. Crap, you are in Denver, the Aurora campus is right there downtown next to the Tivoli restaurants (decent food and a great beer selection). I know having taken several classes on that very campus.Even if that is too inconvenient for your lifestyle or medical condition, there are plenty of accredited online opportunities. I know, am doing it now.Don't be too lazy to learn and get official credit for doing so, play by their rules and obtain additional income.You can either game the system or let it game you, your choice.

I heard an incredible though as yet unverifiable fact.(actually 2)1) We borrow 42 cents of every dollar.2) Even if every citizen were taxed at 100%, it wouldn't balance the budget.

You heard a fact?You do know that debt and budget are two different things don't you?