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Author Topic:   Motivations for the non-belief in God
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 45 of 89 (355083)
10-07-2006 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
03-10-2006 7:42 PM


Re: I'm not too sure about a couple of the assertions.
It's been my experience that in most cases belief in some divinity has nothing what so ever to do with whether or not a person is ethical.
This is clearly wrong. While it is true that certian people have a certian sense of morality reguardless of whether or not they believe in some divine being it is rediculous to assume that religion has nothing whatsoever to do with affecting a person's morality.
The proof: There have been many genuine conversions to Christianity from inside prison. These people radically changed for the better, and did not even attempt to get out of prison, because they took responsibility for their actions. But they accepted Christ into their hearts and were forgiven, and changed. These people are not to be confused with those who come to the stand with a new haircut and claim they have found Jesus. Those are posers.
While someone might think that belief in a divinity would entail adherence to certain ethical disciplines, my experience is that very often those who profess the greatest belief in their diety are the least ethical. Just look at the transcripts from the recent Dover trial and look at the number of times the so called religious witnesses lied.
Once again, clearly wrong. There are just as many immoral athiests as there are immoral christians. This is not to say that religion doesn't affect morality. What you have to understand is, those immoral christians are not true or genuine about their faith. So they are in essence, not neccessiarily true christians, or if they are, they are not showing it.
Again, the only difference I see between those who are religious and those who are not, is that those who are not seem to be more disciplined than most of those who are religious. In addition, the Atheists and Agnostics seem to be far more likely to take responsibility for their actions and less likely to try to absolve themselves through cop outs like original sin or demons.
Rediculous jar. In true Christianity, one takes responsibility for their actions. Christians believe that demons can oppress us and cause us to think bad thoughts, but a Christian cannot be possessed, thus their actions are inexcusable. A true Christian will take responsibility for their actions.

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 Message 6 by jar, posted 03-10-2006 7:42 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 46 of 89 (355084)
10-07-2006 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
03-27-2006 11:01 PM


Re: God cares
well, everyone is saved, Jew and Muslim, Atheist and Agnositic, Satanist and Pagan, Taoist and Christian, unless they really screw up.
That's not what the bible says jar. I find it difficult to understand how it is possible that a person such as yourself who believes that the bible is an anthiology of fabrications can possibly concieve that any one part of the bible is true and use it as a reference to falsify the full context of scripture.
Edited by Guido Arbia, : No reason given.

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 Message 11 by jar, posted 03-27-2006 11:01 PM jar has replied

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 Message 47 by jar, posted 10-07-2006 10:33 PM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 48 of 89 (355094)
10-07-2006 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
10-07-2006 10:33 PM


Re: God cares
Well, Guido, I think it is exactly what the Bible says and you can see my reasoning in the thread Message 1 (Thread Who can be saved? A Christian perspective).
ok, I will check that thread.
I don't think you will be able to point to where I said "that the bible is an anthiology of fabrications" but it doesn't much matter. Even if everything in the Bible (and scripture certainly does not refer only to the Bible and scripture as written in the Bible specifically does not refer to the Bible) was but tales told around the campfire the issue is whether the message is valid.
I cannot point to where you said it on the forum, but I can refer to our chat sessions.
If the bible is an anthiology of tales, then these tales are not litterally true. Since the message of the bible is based on the litteral interpretation of the character of Jesus, it cannot possibly be valid unless we accept this interpretation.
The goddlet described by most Christians is nothing more than a tiny cruel petulant child, and I hardly think something that insignificant could have created the Universe we see.
On the contrary, the pain and suffering in the world points directly to the awesome God that the bible describes. (Not that God delights in pain and suffering).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 10-07-2006 10:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 10-08-2006 12:10 AM Christian7 has replied
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 Message 51 by ReverendDG, posted 10-08-2006 12:42 AM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 52 of 89 (355124)
10-08-2006 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by ReverendDG
10-08-2006 12:42 AM


Re: God cares
i dispute this, this is how you see it not the reality of it, jesus doesn't have to exist for the message of love from god to be real or the spiritual truths to be true
you just see it that way because you see things in black and white, eather its all true or none of it is, i mean was there a real musterd seed or did samson really kill a thousand people with an asses jaw bone?
The full context of scripture declares a message of salvation through Jesus Christ. If we remove the validity of it, then the message is lost.
No. It wasn't a real mustard seed.
Yes. Samsan really did kill a thousand people with an ass's jaw bone.

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Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 53 of 89 (355126)
10-08-2006 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
10-08-2006 12:10 AM


Re: God cares
The message of the Bible is very simple.
No one starts out Damned.
You are charged to try to do what is right and try not to do what is wrong.
It really is that simple.
If you had read the bible carefully enough, you would see that the Christians are rewarded for their good deeds, and the non-Christians are punished for their bad deeds. No where in the New Testimant does it say you can get to heaven without Jesus Christ.

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 Message 49 by jar, posted 10-08-2006 12:10 AM jar has replied

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Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 57 of 89 (355199)
10-08-2006 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Archer Opteryx
10-08-2006 1:12 PM


Re: belief a prerequisite for ethics?
But aren't the apologists just defining terms in a way that guarantees the result they want?
The argument I see on the thread so far is this:
Moral Christians are Christians.
Immoral Christians are not really Christians.
Immoral atheists are atheists.
Moral atheists are not really atheists.
Ergo, Christians are more moral than atheists.
Why should anyone find this argument convincing?
It looks like a 'just-so' picture to reassure the already persuaded.
Wrong, once again. This has nothing to do with Christian apologetics whatsoever. There are some moral and immoral christians as there are athiests, but most likely those christians that are immoral are not really christians. If they are, it is between them and God.

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Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 58 of 89 (355201)
10-08-2006 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
10-08-2006 10:48 AM


Re: God cares
Love those double standards.
Once again, what you describe is not GOD but some petty tyrant.
If you behave while at EvC, but then you get banned for eternity because you did not vote the way that I wanted in the best admin thread, would you consider that the actions of a fair and kind Admin?
You're anology is invalid. God punishes us because we deserve it. Chosing not to vote in your favour is not a criteria for banning someone, but spamming and trolling is.

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 Message 54 by jar, posted 10-08-2006 10:48 AM jar has replied

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 Message 60 by jar, posted 10-08-2006 1:52 PM Christian7 has replied
 Message 69 by dwise1, posted 10-08-2006 4:11 PM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 61 of 89 (355209)
10-08-2006 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by jar
10-08-2006 1:52 PM


Re: God cares
But my example was very accurate and valid and that your response actually supports what I said.
You imply that Christians are saved but others are not. So you claim that goddie punishes those who do not vote for him, who are not Christians.
You go on to say that behavior should be the criteria for sanctions. I agree. I believe any reasonable approximation of GOD would judge based on behavior and not whether the person voted for him in some popularity contest.
As it says in Matthew 25, I believe GOD will judge us on what we have done, not whether we believe in Him, profess Him or vote for Him.
The idea that there are True Christians and NRCs is just silly.
It is the really silly images of god that so many Evangelicals and Fundamentalists present, as well as the out right lies they tell and the demand that believers must first check their brains at the door that motivates folk not to believe in GOD.
Let's say a person lives 25,000 days and does something wrong each day, even if it is something small. That is 25,000 sins. Do you think God should allow them free entrance to heaven for that many sins? I don't think so.
However, Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, so that those who recognize they are sinners and need a savior can accept what he did for them and accept him into their heart and be saved. Then they will not be judged for their sin. It is that simple.

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 Message 60 by jar, posted 10-08-2006 1:52 PM jar has replied

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Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 62 of 89 (355210)
10-08-2006 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by jar
10-08-2006 1:40 PM


Re: belief a prerequisite for ethics?
To get back towards the topic, it is attitudes like that that often provide the motivation for a non-belief in god. When people describe a god that is arbitrary, petty, cruel and dishonest is there any wonder that folk are motivated to ignore it?
There is nothing in the bible to suggest that God is any of that. God offers everyone a free gift of eternal life. All they have to do is accept it. It is by their own volition that they enter into hell.

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Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 72 of 89 (355247)
10-08-2006 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by ReverendDG
10-08-2006 3:52 PM


Re: belief a prerequisite for ethics?
thats hilarious, you just proved AO's point, a moral christian is a christian, because they are moral, an immoral christian is not a christian because they are immoral, not because of thier beliefs.
this IS apologetics, you are trying to fix it where to be a christian you have to be moral, but being moral isn't a requirement to be christian, believing in jesus as savior and god is
Nope. Wrong. Try reading my post again.
An athiest is an athiest because he/she doesn't believe in Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter what kind of person they are. A christian is a christian because he/she believes in Jesus Christ. Now a good christian produces good fruit. I know people who would have become hitman who were saved by the grace of God and changed. Religion plays a big role in affecting a person's morality.

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Replies to this message:
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Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 75 of 89 (355251)
10-08-2006 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by dwise1
10-08-2006 4:11 PM


Re: God cares
But that is exactly what we are taught that your God does. One is punished simply for choosing the wrong god, effectively for "[c]hosing not to vote in [His] favour". And even if choose the right god, you are still punished for choosing the wrong theology; eg, choosing to believe in JHWH but not in the Christ. And even if you believe in the Christ, unless you believe in the right Christian theology you are not "a true Christian" (as we have been told repeatedly by evangelicals and in the past by traditional Catholics (refering to the classification of Protestants as "heretics")).
God does not punish people for not chosing him. So you can forget about that right now. God punishes people for their own immorality (And no one can meet God's moral law). It just so happens that if we chose him and accept Jesus Christ as are savior, God writes are name in the lamb's book of life and blots out our sins.
So it's not just a matter of choosing or not choosing to believe in God, but rather of choosing the right god and the right religion and the right sub-religion (ie, sect and theology). And the proselytizers have yet to present anything that would convince us that their particular sect and theology is the right one. Indeed, they much more often demonstrate that it is the wrong one.
Christianity is not just for white anglosazen protestants. It is for everybody reguardless of what you are.
Damn right you have to chose the right theology. But it's a very simple one. You don't have to accept many things. All you have to accept is Jesus Christ into your heart. You have to believe that he was born into this world, taught in this world, sacraficed his life fo r you and everyone else, died, rose again, ascended into heaven, and is comming back again. You have to believe what the bible says about the trinity. That there are three that testify, The Father, The Word (Jesus) and The Holy Spirit, and these three are one. Each one is a seperate person. Together they constitute the godhead.
In reality, they have created an artificial and false test which actually disproves God. Because the claims of "creation science" are demonstrably false and have been repeatedly demonstrated to be false, their TMA therefore leads us to the inescapable conclusion that God does not exist. "Creation science" created that test and then provided the evidence for the "non-existence of God". And they've convinced many in the public of that test and of the non-existence of God
Really? I don't think so. I think alot of people have fallen pray to their jabberwok. (That is how you would put, isn't it?)
In fact, there have been many well established athiests and evolutionists who have come to the saving knoweledge of Jesus Christ through reading creation science material and studying this. I know someone who is taking biology in college and he at the same time studies creation science material. There is no conflict between modern biology and creation science. There is not even a conflict in the fossil record. Yes, yes, I know. You have millions of fossils. Whatever. But how many transitional species do you have? 5? Why are they all dead?
75% of all children raised in Christian homes who attend public schools will reject the Christian faith by their first year of college.
(video, "Let My Children Go" by Caryl Matritiano, VP Jeremiah Films, 800-828-2290,
Any ignorant fool can observe this fact to be true. I goto the public schools, and indeed, I would say about 75% of them that were taught Christianity rejected it. God shows no partiality. God gives everyone a fair and equal chance to accept him, except for those who go straight to heaven when they die reguardless, such as infants, because they didn't get a fair chance.
I assume that they are trying to condemn the public schools as being anti-Christian. But, assuming that those figures are correct, I interpret them as showing the consequences of having raised those children on the lies of "creation science" and on the false tests for the existence of God that it teaches them.
What exactly are these false tests?

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Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 76 of 89 (355252)
10-08-2006 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Chiroptera
10-08-2006 5:21 PM


Re: belief a prerequisite for ethics?
I know lots of non-Christians, agnostics, and atheists who never even considered being a hitman.
I know people who would have become hitman who were saved by the grace of God and changed.
What about the upstanding non-Christians, agnostics, and atheists whose morality are already on par with any Christians and so don't need it to be affected?
They goto hell because they won't admit how filthy they really are.

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Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 79 of 89 (355255)
10-08-2006 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Chiroptera
10-08-2006 5:25 PM


Re: God cares
If you can't see the difference than you're a damn fool.
Edited by Guido Arbia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 81 of 89 (355257)
10-08-2006 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Chiroptera
10-08-2006 5:28 PM


Re: belief a prerequisite for ethics?
You used a word inappropriately. The word "admit" implies that they refuse to acknowledge a truth that they recognize. However, these non-Christians, agnostics, and atheists do not believe in the evangelical theology and so do not recognize that they are filthy. They are stating what they sincerely believe to be the truth.
Whatever. You're kind of missing the point.
Edited by Guido Arbia, : No reason given.

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