Summations Only

Hi Chuck,Several items on your list confuse atheism with science.And all are, to understate the case, inaccurate.--Percy

Chuck says that his list was a response to the Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian list, I reproduce it here: How does this list measure up accuracy-wise with Chuck's list? Looks pretty accurate to me. Chuck?--Percy

This makes me wonder what Chuck's list would look like were its inaccuracies and errors corrected or removed. Here's my attempt:

10. You vigorously deny the existence of God. You don't blame Him for all the "evils" in the world, all the natural disasters, and everything else under the sun that is wrong in modern society, because you don't believe he exists.
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9. You don't mind that creationists say that people were created in the image and likeness of God as long as they keep these beliefs out of science class. You accept the position of science that evolution is responsible for the diversity of life we see today.
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8. You criticize fundamental Christians for believing the Bible is the literally inerrant word of God rather than a book written by men. To you the Bible is just another book, open to criticism just like all books, including those written by Darwin and Richard Dawkins.
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7. You think that murder is murder, whether carried out by Muslims, Christians, Atheists or anyone else.
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6. You say the Bible is full of fairytales and fables. You believe all life forms including plants, trees, insects, birds, fish, reptiles and mammals evolved from one species into another.
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5. You are amused by those who believe the Supernatural is real. You accept scientific explanations of reality, including that life today evolved over billions of years through a process of random mutation and natural selection.
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4. You accuse fundamentalist Christians of being intolerant, judgmental and hateful, which is true, but this often causes you to respond in intolerant, judgmental and hateful ways.
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3. You accept the principle of cause and effect where evidence supports its application. Many of you understand the principles of thermodynamics and the differences between closed and open systems. You understand that our knowledge in all fields of science is necessarily incomplete and tentative.
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2. You understand that there is no conclusive evidence for a Creator. You understand that absolute truth is an ideal. You understand that the theory of evolution is not a theory of the creation of the universe. You understand that morality is a human and not a scientific concept.
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1. You understand that Atheism is not an explanation of any eternal, unchanging truths, and that Atheism cannot offer man any eternal significance whatsoever. You believe that when we die that is the end, and that there is no ultimate purpose.

--PercyEdited by Percy, : Typo.

Hi Chuck,I think you're blaming the wrong people. You should be casting your accusations at the church that has taught you untruths about the facts of the real world.You began with such promise. You were invited to join the moderator team. You accepted and were outstanding, for example, posting one of the best reviews of a topic proposal that I've ever seen. Hey, everyone, check out AdminChuck's response to Alfred Maddenstein thread proposal (The wealth of esoteric knowledge behind the nonsensical pronouncements.). I think you'll agree it's outstanding. I particularly liked this part: But then it all went wrong. I don't know what happened. I miss the old rational and analytical Chuck and wish he would come back to us.Chuck, your top 10 list was childish, idiotic, and said almost nothing that was actually true. It begins by claiming that atheists blame God for the ills of the world. Are you daft?A lot of people put a lot of time into thoughtful responses to your opening post, far, far more time than you did in cut-n-pasting it. I know it's an enormous volume of posts for one person to respond to, but why don't you pick just a couple of the better responses and reply to those.--Percy

Here's my attempt at a list that is just as chock full of errors as Chuck's. I tried to make sure each item contained serious flaws or errors of fact or logic.

10. You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, yet you frequently blame Zeus and Thor for all the evils of the world.
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9. You will not accept that people evolved from earlier life, but you have no problem believing the Xenu narrative of Scientology that we're all descended from ancient alien astronauts.
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8. You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in elves, fairies, and the Great Pumpkin.
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7. You are outraged at the atrocities committed in Allah's name, but you want to bomb the followers of Zeus back to the stone age.
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6. You reject religions that believe gods consort with mortals, yet you believe that lizards consort with water fowl to produce crocoducks.
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5. You seek a science consistent with Genesis, but you reject thermodynamics, computer modeling and the law of gravity.
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4. You are intolerant, judgmental and hateful, but you hate the military and the death penality and love gays and witches.
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3. You reject much of modern science, but you believe everything the Pope says.
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2. You believe unanswered prayers are because atheists pray to Satan.
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1. You understand that atheists do not believe in God because they fear Him.

--Percy

In case it wasn't clear, yes, that's what I was trying to do.--Percy

About Jon being "ascribed to most of Chuck's points," Jon posted this in Message 70: And in Jon's Message 55 he treated Chuck's list with sarcasm. In light of these messages from Jon, one posted just 8 messages before your own, by what rationale and logic do you reach the conclusion that Jon "ascribed to most of Chuck's points"?About Chuck's list, do you yourself even "ascribe" (I believe you really mean "subscribe") to all of Chuck's points? How about the first one: Do you really believe that atheists blame God for the evils in the world?--Percy

Hi Buz,About personal attacks, there was none. Chuck didn't write the opening post, he cut-n-pasted it. My comment was about his cut-n-paste. Specifically, I said: All this is saying is that Chuck posted a cut-n-paste whose content was childish and idiotic. So you presumably understand that it was blockheaded to claim that atheists blame God for anything. Let's go on to the next item: Is this what you were referring to when you mentioned the primordial soup? If so, then you realize this is a false, too. On to the next: Obviously false. Does this make sense even to you? Except for the gratuitous opinion offered at the end, this one is true. Presumably you know, after all your time here, that no such calculation has ever been made by scientists. I think we can both agree that there's a lot of hateful talk on both sides, so let's call this one true. This one is so confused that it defies analysis. I won't fault you if it sounds correct to you. After all your time here I assume you understand that evolution of not a theory of the creation of the universe. This one is accurate in an ironic kind of way.Adding this all up we have only 3 statements out of 10 that are correct. The numerous incorrect statements make the list a target for criticism.--PercyEdited by Percy, : Grammar.

Obviously atheists believe in God. Every time Buzsaw posts you can hear them muttering, "Jesus Christ and God almighty, I can't believe he just said that!" --Percy

Yes, but I can't imagine why you think this relevant, so let me address a different issue.Normally when one posts crap, the easiest and most straightforward remedy is to admit error, and then there are cheers all round. Probably the worst approach is to post more crap.--Percy

So you understand that the first point from your list is wrong? That it would be like saying, "Christians vigorously deny the existence of Allah, yet they frequently blame Him for the "evils" in the world, like terrorism, the wars in the Middle East, and much else that is wrong."?Let's put the first point from both lists side-by-side: Your point 10 about atheists is impossible, while the point 10 about Christians is true.And all the other points in the list of "Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian" are also true, while most of the points in your list are not true, and some of them defy logic and interpretation.Yet you defend them anyway. How stupid does something said by a fellow Christian have to be before you'll admit it's wrong?--Percy

Hi Buz,I originally clicked "Acknowledge" on your Message 142 because it contained little that made sense, but if you're going to adopt a reasonable position then maybe I'll reconsider discussing this with you. First let me make certain of your position. This is the first point, point 10, from the opening post: And this is what you posted about it in Message 142: So just to be very clear, you now acknowledge that the first point, point 10, is incorrect, and that atheists don't hold God, a non-existent being in their eyes, responsible for anything that happens in the real world.Before we continue, do you want to take another read of the thread and check whether your support of any of the remaining points is due to misinterpretation? I'd highly recommend it. You too often find interpretations that don't follow from what was actually written.--Percy

Okay, on to point 9. This point is incorrect because it not a claim of evolution that "we all evolved from slime by a cosmic accident." The position of evolution is that species evolve through a process of random mutation and natural selection. Ultimately this leads to the conclusion that all life is related if you trace far enough back in time.--Percy

Hi Buz,About your feelings of mistreatment, you might be casting blame in the wrong direction. Everyone's limit of frustration is different and some will maintain a polite demeanor longer than others, but thanks and gratitude are not the normal response to what you've been doing here for so many years. Those attempting discussion with you are met with persistent ignorance, intransigent stubbornness, and a blank wall of incomprehension. Naturally people are going to have difficulty maintaining composure.It's a two way street. If you'd like to be treated better then you should treat others better. If you stop subjecting others to nonsense and begin taking the time and making the effort to understand what people are actually saying, then you might find your situation improving. You don't have to agree, but you should give at least the impression of trying to understand.About Point 9, if you think it accurately represents a claim of evolution then I shant try to talk you out of it, but only because no one is ever able to talk you out of anything, but before I move on I would like to place the two point 9's side by side: As can be plainly seen, your Point 9 is a caricature of evolution, while our Point 9 is an accurate representation of the story in Genesis where it says, "The Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground."Moving on to Point 8. I'll put the two Point 8's side by side again: Your Point 8 about not questioning Darwin or Dawkins is wrong, while our Point 8 about fundamentalist Christians seeing a distinction between polytheism and the trinity is true.Because many here do not share my views about Dawkins, I'll speak just for myself. I received his book The God Delusion for Christmas one year, and after reading one chapter I found it so detestable that I gave it away. I think his selfish gene idea is, to be necessarily brief because I'm already running on, stupid. Yet I loved his book The Blind Watchmaker. Stephen Jay Gould didn't like Dawkins much, either. I think that most people in science view most things with a skeptical eye, accepting that for which there is adequate evidence and rejecting or withholding judgment where there is not.--PercyEdited by Percy, : Grammar.

Hi Trixie,It might also be worth calling Buzz's attention to the fact that a sizable number of creationists also believe that the origin of life and evolution are two different concepts. These creationists believe that God created life, and that after the flood life went through a period of accelerated evolution to produce the vast diversity of species we see today.--Percy