The Awesome Obama Thread II

Subtitled: Bush Jr.'s Third Term in Office What xongsmith said.

You mean like stopping child torture? Is that what you mean by government helping people's lives? Well, perhaps in your parent's household there were frequent child beatings (I wonder why) and you consider that to be "normal". But I come from a family who believes that child torture is kind'a a bad thing. And thus, this is one hill I would like Obama to die on.

Hmm, strange. You really believe that the usa government pays/acts to infect children with torturous diseases like it pays/acts to torture children?Wow. Great analogy Pops.

At the moment, it seems like just two views: 1%ers and 99%ers. Which does Obama serve?

You are so incredibly lame. (cough, cough, Omar Khadr)From your previous post Message 167: Seems like you are having a difficult time keeping your "counter-points" straight. Is Obama continuing the policy of Bush Jr.'s children torturing or not?Under the Bush Jr. and Obama administrations, Bagram, Guantanamo Bay, and other secret rendition sites still operate to perform child torture. As an american, it's especially repugnant to me. For some reason, (like the immorally huge military defense budget), for democrat voters, child torture isn't really a deal breaker with Obama. IMO, I believe republican voters secretly LIKE the idea of child torture, . . . very, very much.Since Crash has spent so much time "defending" Obama on his pro-child torture, even going so far to lie about Crash's previous stance, I can only imagine Crash is pro-child torture too.Can I have a quick poll of participant replies to answer (I'd reeeally like to know):
1. Child torture is NOT a deal breaker with me regarding voting for Obama?

Rahvin, what type of source are you looking for? . . .Since america's "pullout" (we still employ ten's of thousands of US paid merceneries in Iraq, let alone the thousands of military consultants employed at the "embassy," (so much for "ending the Iraqi occupation" campaign promise)), I cannot be sure right now if america is still 100% responsible for atrocities happening in Bagram, Iraq. But as far as Guantanamo Bay, it's illegalities/crimes are still open for business (despite campaign promises) and more importantly, secret extraordinary rendition to countries that DO practice torture are still used by Obama:

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While the Obama administration has tried to distance itself from some of the harshest counterterrorism techniques, it has also said that at least some forms of renditions will continue.

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Extraordinary rendition - Wikipedia Grrr.

If only america kept video-tape records when america tortured "suspects." Whoops . . .Justice Dept. Says CIA Destroyed 92 Torture Tapes
Free Inmate & Jail Records

So, you are pro-child torture if the child is 15 or older?How about 14?Is 12 old enough for torture?

It seemed to me you made an issue solely of the age of a torture suspect. My error, my apologies.

Regarding the age:

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Under the terms of the Optional Protocol to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, on the involvement of children in armed conflict, to which the US is also a signatory, juveniles defined as those under the age of 18 when the crime they are accused of committing took place require special protection.

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There is NO video-tape evidence of him being tortured that I know of. However affidavits state . . .

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There is much more in the affidavit casual cruelty, whereby guards made Khadr do hard manual labor when his wounds were not healed, and, significantly, threats to have me raped, or sent to other countries like Egypt, Syria, Jordan or Israel to be raped. He also noted, I would always hear people screaming, both day and night,

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Khadr stated that he was short-shackled in painful positions and left for up to ten hours in a freezing cold cell, threatened with rape and with being transferred to another country where he could be raped, and, on one particular occasion, when he had been left short-shackled in a painful position until he urinated on himself

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Military police poured pine oil on the floor and on me, and then, with me lying on my stomach and my hands and feet cuffed together behind me, the military police dragged me back and forth through the mixture of urine and pine oil on the floor. Later, I was put back in my cell, without being allowed a shower or a change of clothes. I was not given a change of clothes for two days. They did this to me again a few weeks later.

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It would have remarkable had this not happened, as countless witnesses including soldiers as well as current and former Guantnamo prisoners have described the brutality at Bagram at the time Khadr was held there between August and October 2002, which led, just over a month after Khadr’s departure for Guantnamo, to the murder of two prisoners and, very possibly, to other murders at the time he was held.

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. . . the Obama administration has decided to press ahead with Khadr’s trial, . . .

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The Torture of Omar Khadr, a Child in Bagram and Guantnamo | Andy Worthington Since america has "dirty hands" of destroying torture video-tape evidence, I'm INCLINED to believe the affidavits. What about you?

Yeah america always sends prisoners to Egypt, Syria, Jordan or Israel when america wants the prisoner to be merely "renditioned".
Sooo lame.

Err, the tapes were from another torture incident. There are sooo many torture incidents, it is hard to keep track of.But you are correct, I cannot know 100% that torture has taken place in this specific incident. I can only weigh the supporting evidence:1. affidavits
2. witness testimony
3. dirty hands of america
4. the OBAMA administration has decided to press ahead with Khadr’s trial

What's the point of the following? Did you concede that Obama's america tortures children or not?

Thanks for the replies Rahvin.(Just some extra info: Khadr isn't some rare example. In 2003, at least 22 juveniles were held at Guantnamo. Age of the youngest prisoner at Guantanomo Bay; 13. Age of youngest prisoner to commit suicide at Guantanamo Bay; captured at 16, died at 21.) I think it is relevant because:1. Obama, not Bush Jr. pressed ahead with the trial, by MILITARY COMMISSION, of Omar Khadr.2. It concerns the charges against Khadr. One side should not be able to unilaterally label the suspect as a terrorist. Thusly, military commissions are fundamentally flawed. Yet Obama (a constitutional law professor?) still champions this cause.3. However, Khadre's case is not the type of case Obama would want to proudly hang as good evidence from torture and military trials. It is claimed that the embarrassed Obama administration was actively seeking a plea agreement to make the case less visible."President Obama has failed to make good on his own promises to close Guantanamo Bay or to fix the unfair military commission system. Powerful interests, including some in the Pentagon, are gung-ho on obtaining whatever convictions they possibly can — even if it’s just a wrongly accused child soldier. To date, President Obama has lacked the courage and leadership to stop them."zcommunications.org - zcommunications Resources and Information.Yes, again, I concede that this does not PROVE 100% that Obama directly supports child torture. But c'mon! Obama has been TIGHTLY in lock-step with Bush Jr.. The evidence is well beyond a shadow of a doubt. Even Crashfrog conceded it.1. In feb 2010, to defend a lawsuit brought by several men subjected to "extraordinary rendition" and torture, Obama invoked Bush Jr's ol' "state secrets doctrine".2. The ARBITRARY detention and torture of prisoners, and the complete lack of accountability for the crimes committed by the previous administration acknowledge the failure of the Obama administration to live up to their human rights obligations.3. Despite President Obama’s pledge to close Gauntonimo Bay, there is no indication from authorities or Congress that they will ever do so. Instead, Obama signed the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), which included an amendment that authorized indefinite detention. Obama added a signing statement that his administration would not apply the detention language to U.S. citizens. But what about future Presidents? Instead of signing the NDAA, Obama should have vetoed the bill and reexamined the original AUMF for its serious breach of civil liberties.4. Obama didn't want american soldiers to leave Iraq. He wanted to change Bush Jr's agreement and have the soldiers stay while having complete immunity from crimes they commit. Crimes like rape, torture, murder. Please read the atrocities of Haditha and Fallujah. Does this sound like a person who is against mere child torture?5. Under Obama, in Afghanistan, U.S.-led special forces often kill schoolchildren in night time raids.6. Obama, the president, took an oath to uphold the constitution and its laws. Obama becomes responsible for Bush Jr.'s crimes if Obama allows the perpetrators to walk free. When Obama was a senator, he did not join Kucinich in the 35 articles of impeachment against Bush Jr.. Thus, by omission and/or dereliction of duties, Obama DID support Bush Jr's torture of children.Am I to believe a person who stepped up the use of drone attacks which have killed wedding parties in the past and continues to kill innocent civilians somehow simultaneously cares about children?

"Thwarted by it"? I'd be thrilled if that was the case.My dear ol' Straggler, Obama has ADVANCED the "conservative" (corporatist/fascist) agenda. More posts to come.