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| Author | Topic: The Awesome Obama Thread II | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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dronester Member  Posts: 937 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 8.7 |
Please re-read this thread and the original Obama thread for details. I hate that SENATOR Obama and president Obama (who swore an oath to protect the constitution and its laws) protects Bush Jr from criminal investigation (I have repeatedly wrote about how PRESIDENT Obama intervened in Spain on Bush's account. It doesn't seem to bother any one else).
No, Obama did not inherit the wars. SENATOR Obama helped create the wars by funding EVERY war vote (the Vietnam war ended simply because congress stopped funding it). And, as a SENATOR, not supporting the articles of impeachment against Bush Jr.
In effect, you are offering me the steering wheel AFTER the car has left the cliff. (I suppose I can now at least take my foot off the gas pedal.) Outside of america, the US has no credibility and are seen as immoral and illegal invaders. The UN is not perfect, but it is a better choice. The quicker the changeover the better.
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Omnivorous Member  Posts: 3105 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
Hi, nwr. I'm just using your post as an occasion to comment, mostly because I appreciate your comments. As a combat vet who opposed the war I fought in before--and after--I served in it, I heartily endorse crash's arguments in this thread. We struggle to survive where we find ourselves, not where we would prefer to be. If stateless fighters form an army to attack us, I find their lack of national borders no impediment to prosecuting a war against them, nor do I find the national borders of another nation an ethical or moral barrier to that prosecution. The civilian casualties caused by drones are unfortunate, but any alternative also entails civilian casualties, arguably in much greater numbers, and would guarantee much higher American casualties. I didn't object to the full invasion of Afghanistan so much as I did the occupation. Our forces are much better at inflicting rapid, heavy damage than at taking and holding territory. Our material wealth, technology, and reluctance to sacrifice American lives make us better suited to punitive actions, however massive, than to occupations. I think that message--"If you attack us, we're going to blow up all your shit and leave. Don't make us come back!"--is far more effective than resentment-creating occupations in regions where our very presence is tantamount to sacrilege. I detest war in a way no one who hasn't seen it cannot. I abhor the stupidity with which the lives of American troops and American honor are sometimes so casually put at risk. But to respond to armed aggression with anything other than our full, effective might is foolishly counterproductive, and, ultimately, does not serve peace. "If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
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crashfrog Inactive Member |
And there's your reason why Congress will never, ever again attempt to force the President to end a war by defunding it.
Well, not everybody can have Dennis Kucinich's distinguished record of... hrm, what, exactly? Belief in UFO's, opposition to reproductive freedom, and a cowardly withdrawal from the Senate? If you insist that the only palatable Senator/President is the one who insists on martyring himself on every single issue, then Kucinich was definitely your guy. But a great many of us elected a President with the idea of policy accomplishment, and to the extent that the President is constrained by Congress, there remains much to be pleased by.
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jar Member  Posts: 23429 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 7.1 |
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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dronester Member Posts: 937 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 8.7 |
Don't forget the hot wife. (Meooow!)
Your other piffle (apparently embraced by others on this forum) has been addressED repeatedly.
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dronester Member Posts: 937 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 8.7 |
Iraq didn't attack the US. Terrorists, mostly from Saudi Arabia and based in Saudi Arabia attacked the US. And the country of Afghanistan did not attack us. Now, I understand you didn't say Iraq DID attack the US, but you could be explicit and indicate that is WAS immoral and illegal for america to attack Iraq.
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Rahvin Member  Posts: 3821 Joined: Member Rating: 9.6 |
I'm quoting you here as a reply both to you and to crash, because the above is how I can potentially be convinced to sway my support. I'm a humanistic utilitarian. I value the net reduction in human suffering and death. My revulsion at drone attacks stems from my sense of justice which in this case essentially boils down to "sometimes you have to kill to save lives, but for the love of humanity make sure you're killing the right people and not just contributing to more death and suffering." Instances where drone attacks have blown up weddings and stories I've heard on NPR detailing the extremely low level of certainty required for authorization of a drone attack (ie, look Muslim and have something that looks like it might be a weapon from a long distance, which covers just about everyone in Afghanistan or Pakistan) cause me to expect that the accuracy of drone attacks (meaning the killing of actual, real threats as opposed to "collateral damage") to be rather low. If I am mistaken in this belief, I would welcome evidence to prove me wrong - it would make me feel an awful lot better about my country. I've never seen a cogent analysis of the issue from that perspective. I'm not just some peacenik tree-hugger pacifist (though I really, really wish I could be). I firmly believe that the United States was justified in using nuclear weapons at the end of WWII (largely because of what everyone knew and when they knew it; had psychic powers or time travelers from the future with 20/20 hindsight existed, the rational choice would have been different). I understand that defending oneself often means killing threats, and I understand that killing threats is virtually never clean. I just want to be certain that we're using the most accurate, least harmful methods, particularly considering the problem of increased enemy recruitment in the face of perceived (real or imagined) injustice from the American military. “The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
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dronester Member Posts: 937 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 8.7 |
Huh? Am I misunderstanding? You're saying ending the Vietnam war was BAD?
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dronester Member Posts: 937 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 8.7 |
Oh no, not the defunct humanistic utilitarian POV! For the mother of god, no Rahvin, no, . . . nooooo.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 3821 Joined: Member Rating: 9.6 |
I think he's more commenting on how the defunding of the war effort caused massive problems. I wasn't alive for Vietnam and I don't have time to do research at the moment, but I would hazard to guess that either by removing funds, Congress also impeded the ability to pull out, or that the President simply continued to "stay the course" despite the new lack of funding and that this crippled the American ability to prosecute the war decisively. Or both. How far off am I? “The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
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Rahvin Member Posts: 3821 Joined: Member Rating: 9.6 |
...what? “The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
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dronester Member Posts: 937 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 8.7 |
He'd help clarify things in this thread.
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dronester Member Posts: 937 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 8.7 |
The WAR was a massive problem, not the ending of it.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 3821 Joined: Member Rating: 9.6
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Maybe, but he's been replaced by Dark Oni, who would insist that "the problem of terrorism would go away if everybody would stop eating so much damned meat, stop smoking, and get some exercise, you fatty nerd." “The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
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Rahvin Member Posts: 3821 Joined: Member Rating: 9.6 |
I don't recall anyone suggesting otherwise with regard to Vietnam. “The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
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