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Author Topic:   The Awesome Obama Thread II
Rahvin
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Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 91 of 397 (651836)
02-10-2012 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by crashfrog
02-10-2012 1:01 PM


Re: Learning how to fight.
I don't think we can ignore the threat that religious terror organizations pose. And while I favor the "law enforcement" paradigm more than I favor the "invade countries" paradigm, that doesn't always work when we're talking about the lawless reaches of frontier Pakistan. The law enforcement paradigm works for urban terror networks; I don't think it works as a response to wasteland training camps and that sort of thing.
And this is the true dilemma - and it's not even limited to frontier regions. The problem with Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and other nations is the lack of a suitably strong central government with law enforcement to back it up. Even in the US I can go to the backwoods somewhere in Montana - but law enforcement caught the Unibomber anyway. The difference is that the United States, while it may have "off the grid" areas that can hide all manner of individuals, also has local and state police, the FBI, and other agencies with the authority and ability to enforce the law anywhere in the nation's borders.
Afghanistan and Pakistan certainly do not have that - their central governments are largely ignored by local tribes, who practice their own local laws independently.
And yes, this is the best argument in favor of using drone strikes - while law enforcement would be the best solution to the problem, law enforcement in the relevant nations is simply too weak to perform the job, and so drone strikes from halfway around the world become the most effective replacement.
I'm just not sure we can't come up with a better response. We know that drone strikes will be more likely to cause unintended civilian death than police action. We know that unilateral lethal force, particularly from a foreign polity (regardless of whether the local government has consented; government consent is different from civilian support), will be regarded negatively and cause resentment in those who feel its effects.
The Navy Seal strike that killed bin Laden was far more precise and targeted than any drone strike...and caused limited resentment as compared to drone attacks. It also cost more and put American soldiers at risk, while drone attacks are relatively cheap and carry the life-risk (to the attacker, anyway) of your average video game.
What I'd much rather see, as opposed to using the next-best tactic of drone attacks to replace ineffective law enforcement, would be local partnerships with tribal leaders, the central national government, and whatever US help they ask for to solve the real problem: create a strong law enforcement capability across the more lawless regions with consistent enforcement and checks against corruption. I have no idea how realistic that is - from what I understand even the central governments of Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iraq are all corrupt to the core and the security forces we've helped them create are, if anything, worse.
I'm not sure what's being done wrong, or if the cause is simply hopeless. The paradigm we're all used to involves the police being a phone call and a few minutes away, and where Unibombers and McVeighs and the like are hunted down and captured without foreign assistance. Perhaps the cultural background of the areas in question is simply incompatible with the sort of law enforcement necessary to attack terrorism without enraging the local populace.
But I do know that the idea that the American "war on terror" is actually a war on Islam is not an uncommon belief, by Pakistanis, Afghanis, and Americans. I've heard multiple cases (NPR stories, so I don't have a link) where investigations have shown that the criteria for a drone attack has often involved little more than wearing traditional clothing and being male. The perception that a foreign nation is dealing out lethal force against local cultural and religious freedom is very real and powerful.
Or you might say "well, France sucks, but she was intending to kill about 40 Parisians in a cafe bombing, so maybe I'll just let this one go, especially now that I think back to the time a bunch of her friends killed my uncle coming out of Sunday Mass last year."
Or perhaps I'd say "Oh, so that's why she wanted to blow up a bunch of French people, they really are evil and out to get us, she was right all along, let's see if I can blow up something in her stead."
But you know, a lot of people in Iraq or Afghanistan or Pakistan blame both sides.
And they're right.
But perhaps we can find a strategy that would just have them on our side against the terrorists, instead of hating us both?

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2012 1:01 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2012 2:01 PM Rahvin has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 92 of 397 (651837)
02-10-2012 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by dronestar
02-10-2012 11:54 AM


Re: Learning how to fight.
I'm sorry but how exactly is substituting selective strikes for carpet bombing and invasion escalating violence?
Since when is it a choice of diplomacy or violence?
Do you enjoy creating false dichotomies?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by dronestar, posted 02-10-2012 11:54 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by dronestar, posted 02-10-2012 3:37 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 93 of 397 (651839)
02-10-2012 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Rahvin
02-10-2012 12:07 PM


Re: Learning how to fight.
And I agree with what you have said.
I have long, long said that Police Action is a good procedure, and that had we spent one one hundredth of what we wasted on the Iraq and Afghanistan war on aid to Palestine, Yemen, Angola, Sudan there is a pretty good chance we would see much less anti-American feelings and terrorism.
But the various solutions are not mutually exclusive, we need to have a well stocked tool box so that we can choose the least harmful most likely to succeed tool in any given case.
The problems are that since Jimmy Carter we have not had many Presidents willing to use multiple tools and so many of the really useful tools don't make good media fodder.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Rahvin, posted 02-10-2012 12:07 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 94 of 397 (651840)
02-10-2012 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Rahvin
02-10-2012 1:41 PM


Re: Learning how to fight.
I think we're in agreement, to a large extent.
I think anybody who thinks they're on the side of the angels about this, or think they've got it all figured out (ahem - Dronester) just doesn't have a clue. I read the core of your post as mostly being "I don't know", and that's a sentiment that I heartily endorse and am always glad to see expressed. Cheers!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Rahvin, posted 02-10-2012 1:41 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Rahvin, posted 02-10-2012 2:24 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 95 of 397 (651841)
02-10-2012 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by crashfrog
02-10-2012 2:01 PM


Re: Learning how to fight.
I think anybody who thinks they're on the side of the angels about this, or think they've got it all figured out (ahem - Dronester) just doesn't have a clue. I read the core of your post as mostly being "I don't know", and that's a sentiment that I heartily endorse and am always glad to see expressed. Cheers!
I'm also in agreement with Dronester, though - the killing of innocent civilians and especially children is absolutely reprehensible.
I suppose my greatest disappointment is simply that we're still relying heavily on a method that we know is at least somewhat counterproductive. I don't know how much effort has been devoted to finding more ethical and effective solutions to the problem of international terrorism, but I would really, really like to see a better solution...because the current methodology isn't a long-term solution to the problem. It's more like a treatment program to prevent symptoms from becoming too bad, but that doesn't ever cure the disease even in a single locality.
I'd also like to see fewer American soldiers (read: zero) acting like jackasses and urinating on dead people, even if those dead people had moments ago been trying to kill them.
War has always brought out the worst in humanity, and while this is certainly a different sort of war, one we can't win with tanks or fighter jets (and may not be able to "win" in the traditional sense at all, there is no central enemy to vanquish or sign a treaty with), that part remains the same.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2012 2:01 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 96 of 397 (651854)
02-10-2012 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
02-10-2012 1:44 PM


Re: Learning how to fight.
You accidentally missed my previous question:
jar writes:
Are you comfortable with other nations, perhaps China, Costa Rica, or Vanuatu, using drone attacks upon the usa because they "believe" we are the enemy?
Thus, should you fear that the us is creating standards for all nations to copy?
Jar writes:
Since when is it a choice of diplomacy or violence?
Do you enjoy creating false dichotomies?
Huh?
Let me try again from the top . . .
American soldiers are NOT in Afghanistan because of terrorists. If terrorists were the problem we would have invaded Saudi Arabia, the country where most of the 9/11 terrorists came from. (None were from Iraq either). America is in Afghanistan for the energy resources and hegemony in the region. The american government knows it, the Afghani people know it. But the american population that watches american corporate news is not aware. From ancient history's Alexander the Great in 330 BC to the British during the nineteenth century, Russians, and now americans, the Afghans rightly sees americans as invaders. The Afghans hate us so badly they are choosing the awful Taliban over the us. They want all occupiers out of their country, they will not collectively work with the us. To expect them to work with america when they know that america wants to steal their energy resources is crazy thinking.
In Iraq? If WMD are a problem, america would NOT have supplied Saddam with WMD and continues to supply mass weapons of destruction to other nations with human right abuses (Saudi Arabia, Israel, Egypt, Columbia, etc.). america destroyed Iraq, based on lies, for Iraq's energy resources and hegemony in the region. The american government knows it. the Iraqi people know it. But the american population that watches american corporate news is not aware. In addition, Obama wanted to CONTINUE to occupy Iraq as long as american soldiers got immunity from war crimes and atrocities they commit. Wow, if I was an Iraqi, my mind would be spinning with such a demand. Thankfully, the Iraqis rejected such insanity. America will NEVER win the hearts or minds of Iraqis, nor should they.
The solution is NOT MORE drone strikes. The solution lies in the public enlightenment that the american government lies to them. Demands the government stop escalating violence in their name. Holds the american leaders responsible for war crimes and other atrocities. The solution is NOT supporting the american government to do more of the same (see definition of insanity).
Obama has been increasing drone use in the middle east. Because future presidents will also consider drone use to be "risk-free" for american soldiers and RELATIVELY cheap, drone use will undoubtebly keep increasing. That was never and will never be a solution.
Furthermore, drone strikes that continue to harm innocent lives is not a solution. It will never be a solution. The solution is understanding why america acts criminally and then forcing the american government to do their peaceful bidding.
More posts to come.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 02-10-2012 1:44 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 02-10-2012 3:50 PM dronestar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 97 of 397 (651856)
02-10-2012 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by dronestar
02-10-2012 3:37 PM


Re: Learning how to fight.
Was Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan?
Is anything you posted related to what I actually said?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by dronestar, posted 02-10-2012 3:37 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by dronestar, posted 02-10-2012 4:57 PM jar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 98 of 397 (651872)
02-10-2012 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by jar
02-10-2012 3:50 PM


Re: Learning how to fight.
You know, if you are going to accuse me of not replying to your posts, you should at least respond to mine.
Third time:
jar writes:
Are you comfortable with other nations, perhaps China, Costa Rica, or Vanuatu, using drone attacks upon the usa because they "believe" we are the enemy?
Thus, should you fear that the usa is creating standards for all nations to copy?
Jar writes:
Was Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan?
Yes, Osama bin Laden was in Afghanistan. Before the american invasion, the Afghan Taliban government asked Bush Jr. for evidence that Osama was involved in 9/11 BEFORE they would give Osama up. Since the Aghan government wasn't keen on protecting Al-queda in exchange for an assault on their country, that was probably a legitimate request. It would have alleviated drone strikes or invasions and death and destruction. But, remember, like in Iraq, the american government NEEDED an excuse to invade Afghanistan for the energy resources and to gain the area's hegemony, so the Bush Jr. administration didn't even followup on the Afghan government's request. That moment was extremely instructive to how little "terrorism" really meant to the us government (outside of its fear factor to the american people).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 02-10-2012 3:50 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 02-10-2012 5:04 PM dronestar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 99 of 397 (651875)
02-10-2012 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by dronestar
02-10-2012 4:57 PM


Re: Learning how to fight.
No, I should not fear that the USA is creating standards for all nations to copy; in fact I should hope that is true.
And of course the US did not need an excuse related to Afghanistan's or IRAQ's energy resources. Sorry but that is just silly.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by dronestar, posted 02-10-2012 4:57 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by dronestar, posted 02-10-2012 5:13 PM jar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 100 of 397 (651877)
02-10-2012 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by crashfrog
02-10-2012 8:51 AM


Re: Next campaign as pragmatic and non-idealistic as the last one?
Crash writes:
Blameless? Faultless? I don't see either of those words in my post.
Then what can we "blame" the Obama administration for and what "faults" can we ascribe to it?
Because everything you have said so far seems to indicate perfection on the part of the Obama administration.
Crash writes:
And I wasn't aware that perfection was the standard we expected from our entirely-human politicians.
I didn't think "perfection" is what had been achieved by the Obama administration until I started questioning you about it.
Based on your answers in this thread I am starting to think that "perfection" is a suitable description of what has been accomplished.........
Like I said - You should work for Obama's campaign team!!
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2012 8:51 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2012 5:54 PM Straggler has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 101 of 397 (651879)
02-10-2012 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by jar
02-10-2012 5:04 PM


Re: Learning how to fight.
Jar writes:
No, I should not fear that the USA is creating standards for all nations to copy; in fact I should hope that is true.
Wow, just wowww. Please see Crash for bipolar medication requirements.
Jar writes:
And of course the US did not need an excuse related to Afghanistan's or IRAQ's energy resources. Sorry but that is just silly.
So you believe the american public would have faithfully supported the illegal and immoral Afghan and Iraq invasions if Bush Jr just told the public the truth?:
"WE WANT THEIR OIL/NATURAL GAS!!!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 02-10-2012 5:04 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 02-10-2012 5:18 PM dronestar has replied
 Message 106 by Rahvin, posted 02-10-2012 5:43 PM dronestar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 102 of 397 (651882)
02-10-2012 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by dronestar
02-10-2012 5:13 PM


Re: Learning how to fight.
So you believe the american public would have faithfully supported the illegal and immoral Afghan and Iraq invasions if Bush Jr just told the public the truth?:
"WE WANT THEIR OIL/NATURAL GAS!!!"
If we wanted oil or natural gas we could simply buy it for far less than the cost of either invasion, plus no where can you point to me ever saying either invasion was justified or warranted.
Misrepresent folk much?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by dronestar, posted 02-10-2012 5:13 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by dronestar, posted 02-10-2012 5:35 PM jar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 103 of 397 (651885)
02-10-2012 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Dr Adequate
02-10-2012 10:36 AM


Re: Next campaign as pragmatic and non-idealistic as the last one?
Dr A writes:
Given that, I think that Obama's done a good job.
OK.
Then why do so many people feel so disenchanted and disillusioned? What is it that they expected? And what raised those expectations? Was Obama's last election campaign grounded in pragmatism and reality (as Crash suggests) or did it contribute to the "wizard" expectations that have failed to be met? Will Obama invoke similar inspiration and support in the forthcoming election? If not why not? What has changed? On what basis were expectations raised and on to what extent can we say that the Obama administration is divorced from A) The existence of those expectations and B) The failure to meet those expectations?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-10-2012 10:36 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2012 6:06 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 109 by Omnivorous, posted 02-10-2012 6:30 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 158 by dronestar, posted 02-22-2012 9:39 AM Straggler has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 104 of 397 (651888)
02-10-2012 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by jar
02-10-2012 5:18 PM


Re: Learning how to fight.
Jar, what is wrong with you? You are being nasty for no reason.
The following is a question:
quote:
So you believe the american public would have faithfully supported the illegal and immoral Afghan and Iraq invasions if Bush Jr just told the public the truth?
You can tell it is a question by that squiggly letter form at the end of the sentence.
Have a good weekend Jar. Try to do some meditation exercises, ok? Eat a plum. Take the missus out to dance. Be thankful there isn't a drone-missile with your name on it. (yet)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 02-10-2012 5:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 02-10-2012 5:37 PM dronestar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 105 of 397 (651890)
02-10-2012 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by dronestar
02-10-2012 5:35 PM


Re: Learning how to fight.
I'm saying that your assertion is not the truth.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by dronestar, posted 02-10-2012 5:35 PM dronestar has not replied

  
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